by Ray Comfort
Of all the questions you will ask yourself in life, probably the most important is, Am I good enough to go to Heaven? The way to find this out is to ask yourself if you have obeyed the Ten Commandments. Most would answer the question, “Well, I’ve broken one or two, but nothing too serious, like murder, etc.” So, let’s go through them and see how you do:
1. “You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Is God first in your life? Do you love God above all else? Many years ago, I purchased a T.V. for our children, but the first evening we had it, I arrived home from work and found that they didn’t even bother to greet me. They were too busy watching television. I turned it off and explained to them that if they ignored me because they preferred to watch T.V. they were setting their love on the gift rather then the giver, a wrong order of affections. In the same way, if we love anything – husband, wife, children or even our own lives – more than we love God, we are setting our affection on the gift rather than the Giver, which is a transgression of the First Commandment. In fact, the Bible says that we should so love God that our love for Mom and Dad and brother and sister should seem like hatred compared to the love we have for the God who gave those loved ones to us.
We are also commanded to love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. Jesus spoke of a Samaritan who found an injured stranger, bathed his wounds, carried him to an inn, gave money for his care and told the inn-keeper that he would pay for his expenses. We call him the good Samaritan, but in reality he wasn’t “good” at all, he merely obeyed the basic command to love his neighbor as himself. That is a picture of how God expects us to love our fellow human beings. We should love them as much as we love ourselves…whether they be friend or foe.
Have you loved God with all your heart? Have you loved humanity as much as you love yourself? You be the judge. Will you be innocent or guilty on Judgment Day of breaking that Commandment? I’m not judging you – I’m asking you to judge yourself before the Day of Judgment. The sentence for breaking this Commandment is death.
2. “You shall not make for yourself any graven image.”
This means that we shouldn’t make a god to suit ourselves, either with our hands or our mind. I was guilty of this. I made a god to suit myself. My god didn’t mind a “white” lie or a fib here and there – in fact, he didn’t exist. He was a figment of my imagination, an “image” which I shaped to suit myself. Is your God the One revealed in Holy Scripture? If not, then you have made your own god to suit yourself – you have committed the oldest sin in the Book. Scripture warns that no idolater will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”
Have you ever taken God’s name in vain – instead of using a four-letter word to express disgust, you’ve used His name? Hitler’s name wasn’t despised enough to use as a curse word. If you have used His holy name in that manner, you are a blasphemer and will not enter the Kingdom of God.
4. “Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy.”
I ignored this command for 22 years. Even though God gave me the gift of life, never once did I ask what He required of me. I was guilty of breaking this Commandment.
5. “Honor your father and your mother.”
Have you always honored your parents in a way that’s pleasing in the sight of God? Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. You may have forgotten them, but God hasn’t.
6. “You shall not murder.”
Jesus warned that if we get angry without cause we are in danger of judgment. If we hate our brother, God calls us a murderer. We can violate God’s Law by attitude and intent.
7. “You shall not commit adultery.”
Who of us can say that we are pure of heart? Jesus warned, “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.” Remember that God has seen every thought you have had and every sin you have ever committed. The day will come when you have to face His Law, and we are told that the impure, fornicators (those who have sex before marriage) and adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God. Punishment for transgression of this Commandment is the death penalty.
8. “You shall not steal.”
Have you ever taken something that belonged to someone else (irrespective of its value)? Then you are a thief – you cannot enter God’s Kingdom.
9. “You shall not bear false witness.”
Have you ever told a lie? Then you are a liar. How many lies do you have to tell to be a liar? Just one. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin. God does!
10. “You shall not covet.”
That means we shouldn’t desire anything that belongs to another person. The covetous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? All of us have sinned, and just as with civil law, you don’t have to break ten laws to be a lawbreaker, so the Bible warns, “For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, “That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!” It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man’s standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God’s standard – His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day.
This may sound strange, but the worst thing you could do at this point of time is to try and clean up your lifestyle – you realize that you have sinned, so from now on you will keep the Ten Commandments, do good deeds, say the right things and think only pure thoughts. But should a judge let a murderer go because he says he will now live a good life? No, he’s in debt to justice and therefore must be punished.
The Law of God is merely like a mirror – all a mirror does is show you the truth. If you see egg on your face, you don’t try and wash yourself with the mirror, it’s purpose should be to send you to water for cleansing. Neither should you try and wash yourself with the mirror of God’s Law…that’s not its purpose.
The sight in the mirror is not a pretty one, but if you don’t face it and acknowledge that you are unclean, then all that “dirt” will be presented on Judgment Day as evidence of your guilt, and then it will be too late to be cleansed.
Perhaps you think that God is good and will therefore overlook your sins. But if you were guilty of terrible crimes in a civil court and said to the judge, “Judge, I am guilty but I believe that you are a good man and will therefore overlook my crimes,” the judge would probably respond by saying, “You are right about one thing; I am a good man, and it’s because of my goodness that I am going to see that justice is done, that you are punished for your crimes.” The very thing that many are hoping will save them on Judgment Day, God’s “goodness,” will be the very thing that will condemn them. If God is good, He should punish murderers. liars, thieves, etc., and Hell will be their dreadful fate.
What a terrible place Hell must be. If you read in the newspaper that a man received a $5 fine for a crime, you could conclude that his crime was insignificant. But if a man received multiple life sentences, you could conclude that his crime was heinous. In the same way, we can catch a glimpse of how terrible sin must be in the sight of God by looking to the punishment given for it – eternal punishment. Ungrateful humanity never bothers to thank God for His wonderful blessings of color, light, food, joy, beauty, love, and laughter, so He will take those blessings away from them. Instead of proving their gratitude by obedience to His will, they use His name to curse. Their punishment will be just but severe to the uttermost. Take the time to read what Jesus said Hell was like in Mark 9:43-48. I am afraid for you…please, look honestly into the mirror of the Law, then seek the “water” that cleanses every sin. If you don’t believe what I am saying about the reality of Hell, it means you think God is corrupt (that He hasn’t the moral backbone to seek justice), that Jesus was a liar, that the Apostles were false witnesses, that God’s promises are nothing but prefabricated lies, and there is no greater insult to God than to call Him a liar. By doing so, you are adding to your transgressions. Imagine if you reject the Savior, die in your sins and find that what I have told is the Gospel truth? Then it will be too late, you will be judged for you sins. If that happens, and your eyes meet my eyes on the Day of Judgment, I’m free from your blood. I have told you the truth, but if you choose to ignore it your blood will be upon your own head…you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Can you see your predicament? You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, you have sinned “with knowledge.” Isn’t it true that every time you lied, stole, lusted, etc., you did it with knowledge that it was wrong?
Does the fact that you have sinned against God scare you? It should. You have actually angered Him by your sin. The Bible says His wrath abides on you, that you are an “enemy of God in your mind through wicked works.” But let fear work for your good in the same way that a fear of jumping out of a plane at a great height would make you put on a parachute. Let your will to live open your heart to the Gospel of salvation.
I am not the only one who doesn’t want you to end up in Hell. The person who gave you this tract cared enough to give it to you and risk your rejection, and God Himself is not willing that you perish. To make clear what an incredible thing He has done for you in the Gospel, let’s look again to civil law: You are standing in front of a judge, guilty of very serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you haven’t two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence…he lifts his gavel, when someone you don’t even know steps in and pays the fine for you. The moment you accept that payment, you are free to go. Justice has been served, the law has been satisfied, and what’s more, the stranger who paid your fine showed how much he cares for you. His payment was evidence of his love.
That’s what God did for you, in the person of Jesus Christ. you are guilty, He paid the fine 2,000 years ago. It is that simple. The Bible puts it this way: “he was bruised for our iniquities . . . Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us…God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
It was no small thing for Jesus to die for us. The only thing that would satisfy the demands of Eternal Law was the suffering death of the sinless Son of God. What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn’t have to be punished for your sins. His sacrificial death and resurrection mean that you need no longer be in debt to the Law, and God can now grant you everlasting life if you obey Him — death no longer has a legal hold upon those who belong to Jesus Christ.
Two men were offered a parachute while seated in a plane. The first man was told it would improve his flight, but the second man was informed he had to make a 25,000 foot jump. when the flight struck severe turbulence the first man took his parachute off because as far as he was concerned it didn’t improve the flight. but during the same violent turbulence, the second man clung tighter to his parachute. Each man’s motive for putting the parachute on determined whether or not they would keep it on. In the same way, the reason you should “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” shouldn’t be to find peace, joy, true happiness, to have your marriage healed or your problems fixed, etc. (to have your flight improved), but it should be to escape the jump to come – because of the fact that you have to pass through the door of death. Then, when the flight gets bumpy (when problems come) you won’t fall away from the faith.
What should you then do? Simply repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. Don’t put it off until tomorrow.
Would you sell an eye for a million dollars? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless to you, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Your life (your soul) is of such value, Jesus said that you should despise the value of your eye compared to it. He said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is better to enter Heaven blind than to go to Hell seeing. In other words, of all the things you should prioritize in your life, it’s not your health, your vocation, etc., it’s your eternal salvation.
Think of a man who has committed adultery. His faithful wife is more than willing to take him back, so what is the attitude in which he should approach her? It should be one of tremendous humility, asking for forgiveness, and determining in his heart never to even think of committing adultery again.
That’s how you should approach God. If you are not sure how to pray, read Psalm 51 and make it your prayer. Then put your faith in Jesus Christ in the same way you would put your faith in a parachute. You don’t just “believe” it will benefit you, you actually trust yourself to it by putting it on. Then, once you have made peace with God, read the Bible daily and obey what you read.
By the way, someone cared enough about you to give you this tract. Show God you love others by doing the same for them. Write to Livingwaters.com for a free list of unique tracts, books, tapes, and videos to help you in this respect.
Dear Ray: Those are not the Ten Commandments. They are never referred to as the “Ten Commandments” in the Bible. The list that is actually called the “Ten Commandments” is given in Exodus 34, and consists of the following (New International Version):
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Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
Do not make cast idols.
Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. [b] 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.
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To tell you the truth, I cannot tell the exact number of “Commandments” that make up this list, but that’s a whole other debate. The fact remains that these are what the Bible calls the “Ten Commandments.” No other list can legitimately be called the “Ten Commandments,” including the list presented above by Ray Comfort.
Historically, they are commonly referred to as the Ten Commandments, or Ten Statements, more correctly called the Ethical Decalogue. But to dwell on this seems to miss the point of Ray’s column. IF God judges you by Exodus 20 would you be innocent or guilty? He’s trying to appeal to your God-given conscience.
If you are guilty (and who isn’t?) will God send you to heaven or hell? That’s the serious point Ray (and I) want you to ponder. You can refute it all as mumbo-jumbo — but if it’s true you will have to answer to a God of justice, who is Holy and who said He will punish all sin/lawlessness. I say that not as a threat but just outlining what scripture clearly teaches. Really, Geoffry, does that concern you at all?
Ron, can you give me one scrap of evidence that any gods exist? And by evidence, I mean something rational that would withstand scientific scrutiny, just like all other claims about our universe must do. I’m certain that you can’t. But if you can, I’ll happily change my belief, like any good scientist would. If you can’t, then at least admit that your belief in god has no rational foundation, and that there is no reason to base one’s life on it. Better to base one’s life on that which is true.
The numerous prophesies of scripture are probably most compelling to me. But you are right, it’s not all about what you can observe. Obviously, there is faith required. Especially that your sins can be forgiven. That can never be proven this side of eternity. But there is more than enough evidence that those who honestly seek God will find him. Have you read the bible? Again, not meaning that in a hostile way — it’s merely a question. Like I said, I’m willing to discuss it as long as you like – if you are really interested.
Ron: Yes, I have read much of the Bible, but probably not all of it.
As I’ve just written in our other ongoing debate, the so-called prophecies of the Bible cannot be proven to have been actual prophecies, i.e., that they were made before a given event, and that the given event actually took place. What one prophecy do you find particularly compelling?
Ron, regarding the Ten Commandments: Is the Bible the word of your god, or not? If yes, then why do you believe that what your god has called “the Ten Commandments” aren’t really “the Ten Commandments”?
GK. I’m confused. I thought I answered this. Yes, the Bible is the word of God. If you would prefer to not use the phrase the 10 commandments, you are welcome to just say Exodus 20:1-17. I don’t care. To most it’s clear the difference is one is an ethical group and the others contain ceremonial laws. But again this is a rabbit trail away from your own conscience. We all know it’s wrong to lie, steal, lust. Yet we have violated the law as written on our own conscience. My question earlier to you is IF (make that as big an if as you need to) if the bible was right, and day comes when you will be judged by a holy God who knows even the thoughts of you mind – does it concern you you would be found guilty?
If I am ever hauled before a being of some kind who claims to be a god and who announces that he is about to judge me, I would be concerned. I would wonder if this were some interplanetary psycho who gets offended when people don’t worship him. I would be concerned that some people back on Earth are worshipping this fat-headed maniac, rather than fighting him.
Anybody home????
Hey everybody… I think this means I WIN!!!!!!! WOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!
GK, sorry for the delay. You must not have received my email that I’m a little busy at the moment, but would get back w/ you as soon as I am able.
Also I don’t see this as some sort of debate where one of us wins and the other looses. Faith in Christ is not some “intellectual assent” you make. As I think I’ve stated before, no one can make you believe anything you are not willing to believe.
Beyond that, your tone is quite disrespectful. Could be you’re just trying to be cute and keep the mood light. But your last post is really blasphemous and offensive. I too have said things I regretted before I was born-again. I hope you will be shown the same grace. But if you want to carry on a civil conversation, I’m all for it. Part of that civility requires not referring to someone I love as a fat-headed maniac.
Furthermore, the fact you are not concerned about your own sin before an Almighty, all knowing, God tells me you are not interested in hearing more from me. And the rest of our conversation just becomes foolish argument. I’d encourage you to search the scriptures. God promises to reveal himself to any who would seek him. (I Chronicles 28:9)
Wow, I see that your debating tactics have shifted to insulting me personally. Two things:
1) My January 13th comment was a light-hearted way of getting you to reply. I thought that the “WOOOOHOOOOO” would have given that away. Of course, if one party in a debate is unable to offer an intelligent response, then in my opinion they would in fact forfeit the debate. Which brings me to
2) Your comments about my “blasphemous and offensive” remarks. You must understand that my comments are honest and truly what I believe. If you can ever hope to debate an atheist, you must come to terms with the fact that atheists don’t believe that any gods exist. You must understand that I sincerely cannot convince myself that there is any such thing as a god.
Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn’t believe that there are gods in this universe. What do you think such a person would think if he/she were dragged before a being that claimed to be a god? One obvious possibility is that such a being would be seen as an imposter, for gods just wouldn’t be a rational possibility for this person. Do you see where this inevitably leads? This person would truly think they were facing what I called a “fat-headed maniac,” in the mold of a Hitler or Saddam. I am not trying to be insulting or “cute.” If you wish to debate honestly and face my argument intellectually rather than emotionally, you will accept that this is my true belief and rebut my opinions with whatever facts you have to the contrary, as you are more than welcome to do. But to simply toss my argument aside and attack me personally is not an intelligent reply.
By the way, can you tell me where in the Bible it states that your god is almighty and all-knowing? Possibly I missed it, but if so I would like to know where it is written. And please take another shot at my previous statement. I am truly interested in having an open and honest debate on this important subject. If you don’t want to debate it, then just say so, and I’ll move on and try to find someone willing to have an intelligent discussion.
GK,
1. There was no personal attack from me. Saying you were disrespectful is not a personal attack.
2. I could honestly believe many things about Mohamed, but if you were Muslim, I’d still refrain from calling him a fat-headed maniac.
3. I am not sure what argument I’ve tossed aside.
4. re: Almighty
5. “You must understand that I sincerely cannot convince myself that there is any such thing as a god.” Again, this is not merely an intellectual assent you make, Geoffrey. I’m not saying put down your intellect. But I am saying a person must be humble enough to admit it’s possible something out there started this whole thing. And until you are able to do that, there really isn’t a point in us debating – because it really won’t lead anywhere.
Again, I’m not saying that to dismiss you or end the discussion. I’m just saying, there’s only so much I can say. A man who thinks he is strong enough to swim on his own, is only going to see a life preserver as a nuisance at best and foolishness at worst.
1) To call someone disrespectful is, in fact, a personal attack. You should address your comments to disproving my statements, not calling me names.
2) Do you believe Hitler was a fat-headed maniac? I do. And if I were debating with a Hitler-worshipper over how loving and merciful Hitler was, I would state in no uncertain terms that he was a fat-headed maniac. Wouldn’t you? It’s my honest belief, and there’s no way or reason to sugar-coat it. As I said, you’re welcome to present evidence to the contrary. That’s how a debate works.
And besides, I was not insulting your god. I was describing to you how I would interpret the high-and-mighty behavior of a being other than your god, since I don’t believe your god exists. To me, it would seem far more likely that such a creature was a fraud rather than a god. That’s the essence of my viewpoint. You can ignore the term “fat-headed maniac,” and we can continue our discussion.
3) The argument that you are tossing aside is the answer I gave to your question about standing before a creature claiming to be a god. You haven’t acknowledged that this is truly what I believe. Instead, you seem to think it’s nothing more than an insult that I am aiming at you. No! I really would be highly skeptical, based on my admittedly limited understanding of nature. I have seen many frauds, and zero gods.
4) Re: Almighty: I should have said almighty and all-good, since that is the paradox that religionists struggle with. Anyway, thanks for the references.
5) Where did I ever say that it was IMPOSSIBLE for a god to exist? I just don’t BELIEVE that any gods exist. I’ve made this crystal clear in previous postings. Of course it is possible that a god “started this whole thing,” but it is illogical to me for many reasons. One big one: you have to tell me where the god came from, and you can’t. You would say “He always existed.” Well, if you can so easily invoke infinity, why not me: the universe always existed, in one form or another. Poof! No god needed.
Re: Humility. When I arrive at a conclusion, I don’t sit there and try to figure out what the most “humble” explanation would be. It’s not a matter of being humble; it’s a matter of simple logic, completely divorced from ego. And besides, is it really more humble to believe that you are one of your god’s favorites, and that he frowns on everyone else?
RE: “Life preserver”: So your god is a “life preserver” that I’m refusing? Consider this: 6 million Jews died agonizing deaths in World War II. It’s hard not to believe that every last one of them was begging your god to spare them and their loved ones. He didn’t. This is your “life preserver”? I would be very interested in your definition of “life preserver.”
1 and 2. And perhaps you should disapprove of God’s actions rather than calling Him names, referring Him to Hitler, etc.
3. I have no doubt you are sincere. You have also never seen the wind.
4. God is all good. He is also just.
5. Okay.
6. I know I don’t deserve any grace. You in fact are probably a better human being than I am. I can’t tell you why God has saved me – but I give Him all the credit and praise for it. Because if it were up to my own goodness, I’d be sitting on cot next to Hitler.
7. The life-preserver analogy was not directly aimed toward you – but it might as well have been, I guess. The point of it is that if you are not drowning and I toss you a life preserver – in your eyes, I am an idiot.
7a. Re: the Jews who died. see John 13:1-5
1 and 2) I have plenty to disapprove of in the actions of the character God in the Bible. But I was not referring to him, because I don’t believe he exists. I was referring to a creature calling himself “God.” I would believe such a creature to be a fraud, and I would not feel bad about the moniker I gave him. A fraud such as that would deserve much worse.
3) I am glad you do not doubt my sincerity. There are indeed many things I have not seen. To believe they exist, I must have some kind of evidence. Faith is not evidence.
4) Says who?
5) Do I understand you correctly? Are you agreeing that there is no need to attribute the universe to your god? If so, you may yet be saved!
6) You’ve skipped a step in the debate. The question is not, “What has your god done for you,” but “Can you prove to anyone that your god exists in the first place?” And if there is no proof that I can evaluate, then how can your god blame me for not believing evidence that doesn’t exist? Does he expect me to deny my own rationality? It would seem that the central focus of our debate should be, “How do you know?” Such as:
A) How do you know that your god exists? And
B) How do you know the Bible is the word of your god?
7) I cannot label as “an idiot” someone I don’t know. You could just as easily be misinformed, or delusional, or just trying to hit me with the life preserver.
7a) So as I interpret John 13:1-5, you’re saying that the 6 million Jews who died horrible deaths deserved it. Well, I guess that clears up a lot of things. So Hitler was your god’s instrument. He was actually a good guy, wiping out the evil ones. That is quite a revelation. Let me know when you go public with that one; I want to come and watch.
Oh good grief, Geoffrey. Of course Hitler was not a good guy. He was evil. But re-read the scripture. The point is you and I are not any better than the Jews who died – and in fact we all deserve death. Where’s the proof of that? It starts in your God given conscience. All men are born knowing right from wrong – even cannibal’s don’t eat their own. The amazing design of the universe, of nature and of any other science you wish to study, is evidence of a designer to anyone who hasn’t closed their mind to it. You will not be judged by your lack of knowledge but rather by the sins committed against your own conscience. I don’t know what more I can say – but I do urge you to re-read the Bible, examine the prophesies, examine the manuscript evidence for the scripture and pray and ask God if He does exist to give you the proof you need. He’s gracious in that regard.
But I get the impression (hopefully I am wrong) that you really don’t want to know God; even if He did provide proof. You seem to have already made up your mind that He is an evil Hitler-like type of ruler that only seeks to crush your little life. When in fact, nothing could be farther from the truth. The fact you and I live today is evidence of God’s mercy. Until you can grasp that you will never see. Again, pray.
Ron – I disagree strongly with your statement that we all deserve death. Your explanation is nebulous, to say the least: We’re all born with a conscience, and we all commit “sins” against our conscience, and therefore we all deserve death. You lost me. Sin, whatever that is, calls for death because…why?
I’ve repeatedly asked for evidence, and you repeatedly refer me to the Bible. Why should I believe that? Just because you do? And why do you believe it? Just because someone else told you to? Let’s get to the heart of the matter: What proof is there that the Bible is the word of your god? My mind is wide open. All it needs is evidence in order to believe something. What do you require in order to believe something? Does it have to appear in the Bible before you’ll believe it? A bit of cirular logic there.
You tell me to ask you god for the proof I need. OK, here goes, for your god and all the world to see: God, please give me proof of your existence.
OK, now how long do you think I should wait for this proof before deciding on your god’s existence? I am serious. I’ve done as you suggested, and I would like to know what to expect.
You tell me I should read the Bible. I have read much of it, and I intend to continue reading that and other things, such as science articles. Thus far, I’ve found some useful philosophy in the Bible, alongside a lot of trash. For example, there is exhaltation of evil, like Joshua killing all the inhabitants (men, women, and children) of Canaan. What a hero Joshua is.
And have you studied the history of the Bible? Do you realize that humans discarded many other gospels when they were assembling the Bible? How did they know which authors were “divinely inspired” and which weren’t?
And have you studied nature? And by that I mean things such as biology, chemistry, physics, and mathematics? If not, how can you disbelieve it? Do you really want to understand how the universe works? Sure, it’s a lot simpler to study the relatively miniscule work known as the Bible, and to chalk everything up to a grand designer. But it seems that one should study what is already known about the universe before tossing it out in favor of what is not known: a “faith” based on nothing more than somebody’s say-so. You seem to value as sacred the ignorance of all evidence pointing away from a “grand designer.”
And if you have studied the sciences and mathematics, what evidence do you have that contradicts their explanations of the universe? Specifically, what details of evolutionary theory do you disagree with? Which experiments and interpretations thereof, by which scientists? If you cannot answer this, then you have nothing on which to base a disbelief in evolution.
Sorry this is short, I really don’t have time, but since we keep coming back to this.. here’s a summary of my thoughts.
The Bible we have today is an incredibly accurate copy of the original writings. Proof: enormous manuscript evidence. If the copies we have today can be trusted – next we must determine if the words or intent of the authors themselves are indeed accurate. A good starting point for this is prophesy. Statistically speaking it’s nearly impossible for someone to predict just a few of the things predicted about Jesus. His birth, his ancestry, his residence, his death, manor of death, place of death and his resurrection all were foretold centuries before they came to be. Having already verified the dates of the earlier writings – we must conclude either the author was extremely lucky or he was inspired by someone outside of our confines of time and space. Fast forwarding a bit … it becomes much easier to believe the stories of creation and Noah.
Here are a few links to get you started.
http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm
http://www.ronrhodes.org/Manuscript.html
http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=strobelT1074
Want a little more depth?
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nttextcrit.html
If you are unwilling to believe the manuscript evidence, there is nothing more for me to say.
I’ve looked at the links you provided. They all deal with how accurately the New Testament has been copied through the ages, which is beside the point. Even if the ancients had used a Xerox machine, the important question remaining is: How do you know that the Bible is the word of your god?
You cite your belief of Biblical prophesy as proof that the Bible is the 100% true word of your god. The main problem with this assertion is that Biblical prophesies are very non-specific, allowing a great deal of latitude in their interpretation. For example, where in the Bible does it SPECIFICALLY predict those things you mentioned about Jesus: His birth, his ancestry, his residence, his death, manor of death, place of death and his resurrection?
And kindly address my question about how much you have studied nature. You cannot rule out natural explanations unless you first study them. It makes no sense to toss out what is known and substitute “faith” in its place. Since I looked at the links you provided, perhaps you would look at one on evolution. Here is an excellent site on the subject, provided by UCBerkeley, one of the world’s top institutions of learning:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=41
Please tell me if you can find anything on that site that is not proven to a degree of certainty that you find convincing.
GK says: “I’ve looked at the links you provided. They all deal with how accurately the New Testament has been copied through the ages, which is beside the point.”
It’s not beside the point. It’s an important first step in understanding (not agreeing) where I am coming from. Are you saying you agree that the copies are accurate? I don’t want to misunderstand you.
Excellent link. I’ll take more time with it when I have more time. But they’ve appear to have done a great job of putting evolution on a layman’s level.
One quick point: Look here.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evoscales_02
What you should see is something like this:
I’ve modified the image to show what you SHOULD see if macro evolution were true. Notice in their image green and brown become … green or brown. What evolution can’t provide evidence of is upward evolution where a blue beetle or blue strain comes out of nowhere. That is where I have problems with the theory. No one should deny micro-evolution (some will argue against the term, but I’ll use it here because the orig article did). In fact, I believe science has done a good job of proving what is shown in the orig. diagram. We don’t disagree at that level. At least I don’t think we do.
RE: Accuracy of copies: I can see the relevance of this if the prophecies are sprecific and not open to interpretation. But that’s not the case. They are open to broad interpretation. So let’s assume for the moment that the accuracy of the copies is not in question. Where in the Bible does it SPECIFICALLY predict those things you mentioned about Jesus: His birth, his ancestry, his residence, his death, manor of death, place of death and his resurrection?
I understand your question about evolution. The kinds of changes you show DO occur. It just takes a long time, so normally you don’t see it in one generation (“micro-evolution”). As explained at the evolution web site, new things pop up as a result of mutations. Sometimes a mutation is visible immediately when it occurs (i.e., within a single generation) and sometimes it’s not. As mutations accumulate, a gene could produce a protein more and more different from the original. If there are blue plants for the beetle to blend in with, then natural selection could favor those mutations that cause the green pigment to become bluer, until a blue beetle finally appeared.
This is the importance of what Darwin saw on the Galapagos Islands. He saw all kinds of birds filling ecological niches that elsewhere were filled by other species. These birds had differnt beak sizes and shapes, different colors, etc. After much study, he happened to notice that all these birds were all finches, and he concluded that a small finch population had gotten blown off-course and been forced to land on these islands. With lilttle or no competition, they developed all these new characteristics as adaptations to their new environment. Some became adept at cracking seeds, others to catching insects, etc. They had a whole smorgasbord to choose from, and they adapted over time to new forms, each specialized for a particular food source. Since they were isolated on these islands, there were no populations of the original finches for them to interbreed with, which would have kept their descendents looking more like the originals, at least for a much longer time.
Ron – any comments, questions, or answers?
Hey GK – just a note to let you know I am really busy.. but will get back here in a couple weeks. See ya then, Lord willing.
A couple WEEKS?? I could die and go to hell by then!!! Hmmm. Maybe that’s your PLAN! Dastardly!
But seriously, this is always the point in the discussion where religionists drop out, so I won’t be surprised if you never show up here again.
One statement I want to make:The Bible states that when we die and leave this earth we will stand before God and He will judge us accordingly. Well, here’s something i’d like to insert simply because this debate is largely intellectual: Christians believe that when we die, our spirits go to God to be judged.Here’s the problem with basing beliefs solely on intellect and not blending it with a strong faith. When we die, our brains don’t ascend to God, He does not judge our brains, but us, soul and spirit. I’m sure(at least I hope) that it would not be disagreed with that we have souls/spirits. I want to add this too, if, big if, the whole Bible is wrong and all of the amazing Christians I know are wrong about there being a God, and I die and go nowhere, I still will NEVER regret living my life as a bible believing Christian woman. My life is amazing because I am priviledged to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and do the things that He did. I am priviledged to live a life of knowing what true love is(as defined in the Bible and by viewing Jesus’ life)and being able to do great things in my life. I’ve seen God compared to Hitler, but what about God who Mother Teresa followed? She did amazing things in His name,and she was not evil or egotistical or judgemental.Do you think she regrets her life? I’m not questioning intelligence here, i’m isolating specifically heart and conscience and questioning these. Do you think christians today who truly follow after Jesus regret their lives? Just something to ponder in yuor hearts.
I read through all of the above ‘back and forth’ between GK and RS. I am a Christian. I think it’s interesting when someone refuses to take even the tiniest step in faith. Also, Geoffrey’s insistence that any unwillingness to continue to debate with him means that he’s “won”, when, in truth, this appears to be nothing more than mere entertainment for him. He appears not to be searching for God – rather just looking for an argument. The Bible (which I already know he will not acknowledge) says that the things of God are foolishness to man and that a fool declares there is no God.
God is perfect. His creation was perfect, until man fell from grace. God so amazingly loves his creation that he sent Jesus, to die in our place. Jesus is the means by which we can cross from the imperfect to the perfect. Now, no one HAS to believe that. God also gave us free will. He wants us to make a choice about Him. The better choice is so apparent. Why would anyone make any other choice?
Obviously, Geoffrey imagines he will end up as nothing more than compost. Sad, really, when God gave each of us such great spirits, minds, and souls. But, that’s fine, even though it’s spiritually wrong. It’s his right to think that. He’s had the truth presented to him, and he’s made a choice. If he’s genuinely concerned about dying and going to hell in a couple of weeks, he knows what to do about it.
It’s easy to scoff at God and His plan when your life has no apparent need for Him. I hope you need God badly, someday, Geoff. If that day comes, you’ll find that he will completely forgive your earlier ignorance and embrace you as His child. And if you never acknowledge your need, you’ll have no one to blame but yourself.
Kristin – If by “soul” you mean “a conscious entity that survives death and is subject to happiness or misery in a life to come,” I would ask what the evidence is for its existence. I would also advise you to be careful with your terms. You say “soul AND spirit,” as if they are two different things, which I don’t think you intended.
Regarding “I still will NEVER regret living my life as a bible believing Christian woman” : Great, then you’re content believing that it was a GOOD thing that Joshua killed everyone in Canaan and took it over. It was a GOOD thing that Lot’s daughters raped him. It was GOOD for Abraham to obey a voice telling him to kill his son. It’s real important not to boil a lamb in its mother’s milk (so important that it’s one of the REAL “Ten Commandments” – see Exodus 34). It was GOOD that your god let 6 million of his “chosen people” die horrible deaths under the Nazis, ignoring their prayers for rescue. Whatever makes you happy.
Re: “My life is amazing….” You don’t have to be a Christian to do good works. Anyone who does good works in life deserves recognition for them, whether these people are Christians, Hindus, atheists, or others.
Re: “Do you think christians today who truly follow after Jesus regret their lives?” Who knows? I’m not a mind-reader. But we have not been talking here about regretting one’s life. We’ve been talking about what’s known and what’s not. I prefer to base my life on what is known. I view faith as undesirable. Therefore, I seek solid, proven facts to fill the gaps in my understanding, attempting to minimize what I have to take on faith.
Kathy – Re: “The Bible says that the things of God are foolishness to man and that a fool declares there is no God.” Of course the Bible villifies infidels. Be proud that you and muslim extremists have this in common.
Re: “God so amazingly loves his creation that he sent Jesus, to die in our place.” What a great plan! Here’s your all-powerful god, trying to figure out a way to keep us from dying. “How can I stop myself from sending everyone to hell? Hey, I’ve got it! I’ll create a baby boy, and when he grows up, I’ll have the Romans kill him! That should stop me!” Kathy, this makes sense to you? If so, please explain it to me.
Re: “Jesus is the means by which we can cross from the imperfect to the perfect.” How exactly does this work? How does the death of Jesus allow us to become perfect? There are a few steps missing here. Can you give a step-by-step description of the process, with the evidence proving each step? If you can prove it, I’ll believe it. Is that asking too much?
Re: “God is perfect.” Says who? Again, do you have any proof to back you up?
Re: “Geoffrey imagines he will end up as nothing more than compost.” True. I don’t have a glorified image of my importance to the universe. Animals die and become compost. Humans are animals. There is no evidence that in death we are any different from other animals. Therefore I believe we must make the most of THIS life, and take care of THIS world, because it’s all we have. Christians like GW Bush don’t give a damn about this world.
Re: “I hope you need God badly, someday, Geoff.” Translation: “I hope something bad happens to you, Geoff. Something so bad that it will force you to ignore your rational mind and believe identically to me.” Kathy, that’s nice of you. I have no doubt that you fervently hope for this. It is vital to you that nobody doubt your set of beliefs.
Re: “And if you never acknowledge your need [for my god], you’ll have no one to blame but yourself.” I have no need for your fairy tale. You have no need for rational thought. Pardon me for siding with rational thought.
In my opinion, your beliefs are probably an accident of your birthplace. If you had been born in Saudi Arabia, you’d most likely be a muslim. Had you been born in southern India, you’d probably be a Hindu. As an American Indian, you would have been raised to believe in various spirits. Just because you happen to be a Christian and know some “amazing” Christians, doesn’t mean you’re right. There are “amazing” muslims, Hindus, atheists, and Jews too. You don’t have a monopoly on religion, morality, or amazingness. Look around.
GK, I am still digging out from my trip and post tornado effects here (Hardin Co. TN). I’m fine, but my son’s school was destroyed. Without getting in to a long post again, I’m curious about one thing. Where does your sense of right and wrong come from? It’s clear from your posts you obviously have one. Just curious.
Good to have you back, Ron. I’m sorry to hear of the disaster there in TN. I hope you and your family and friends are all OK.
Re: Where did my sense of morality come from. I can only give you my best guess, which is not easy to come up with. I would have to say that my parents have given me a good sense of right and wrong. Some of it also seems to be innate. I think most 5-year-old kids will feel sad if they see an animal hit by a car, even if they don’t know the animal personally. This happens with no help from the Bible. Even isolated tribes who never had contact with the Bible will have their own moral codes. China had a very well-developed civilization with well-developed moral codes without any help from the Bible. My belief, which is pure speculation, is that moral codes in general are based on man’s inherent ability to feel the pain of others, and also on his ability to realize that pain and wrong-doing are not good for a civilization. Whatever the case, it is clear that the Bible is not required for a moral code to arise.
i just read the above debate, and this post is for geoffrey, or any other non-believer who sincerely is searching for answers. i would like to make a suggestion for you. do you have two hours of private, uninterrupted time you can spend? if so, i highly encourage you to listen to two amazing sermons–all the way until the end and the closing prayers. i can’t copy a link, but i’ll direct you where to go. the pastor, tommy nelson, is very much an intellect who knows the bible. i have never heard a better presenter of the word before. please please give it a try? i would love to read your input on what you get out of his sermons… good, bad, nothing or SOMETHING.
here’s where to go:
go to iTunes. in the top search field, type in “tommy nelson” and hit enter. when if refreshes, you should see a brown box icon that has a wheat stalk in it. that is the logo for denton bible church. click on that… in there are loads of his sermons (which i warn, these are highly addictive!!)
i would like for you to start with these two:
1) DOXOLOGY
2) BEHOLD THE MAN
i have enjoyed reading the on-going debate. and geoffrey, please understand, christians will spend time in debates such as these, because of the sincere love and compassion they hold in their hearts for the “lost” (according to their beliefs, according to what is written in scripture.) God changes the heart of a born-again person. you just can’t describe on a page, the difference in one’s heart before and after conversion. our heart’s desire is for everyone to come to know their personal Jesus. because it is God’s desire, and He dwells in the heart of a believer. He is a personal God, who calls us individually to be His. it’s a wonderful plan of God’s… i encourage you to learn it.
please share what you think of those sermons! i look forward to your reply.
sincerely,
colleen
PS-
i should mention, you actually go into the iTunes store and then do the search. all his sermons are free. (and got terrific ratings too!) 🙂
PSS-
sorry, one last thing… i recommend the sermon BEHOLD THE MAN, not be confused with BEHOLD THE LAMB which you will pass first when scrolling down. i’m sure they are both equally terrific, but it’s the first one i listed that has the best Jesus message.
Colleen – I can feel a typical one-way exchange of ideas about to take place, wherein the religionist tells me to read the Bible, or listen to a preacher until I believe like them. Keep in mind that a preacher’s words do not constitute proof. But I’ll tell you what. I’ll visit that web site if you visit the one on evolution that I posted:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=41
And when you go there, you must tell me if there’s anything there that is not proven to a degree of certainty that you find convincing. And I’ll do the same with your web site. Deal?
Hello Geoffrey,
How are you? You have me at a slight disadvantage. I’m not much of an ‘intellect’ by any means, and comprehending what I read isn’t my strong suit. I clicked on your link, and inside are numerous other links to more links. I’ll be honest, I may skim thru these a bit, but i’m certain they won’t make much sense to me.
Please keep in mind, because you are a visitor in Christian forum, you are the one treading on foreign territory, so to speak. We are not in an Atheist forum convincing you to explore Christianity, by a bargain. The Christians in here are already solid in their conversion and will not change their minds. They can’t–it’s impossible! Instead, the Christians should be praying that God will convince YOU to explore His plan… they do not come in here to be convinced to abandon their beliefs, by searching into topics they (we) often find irrelevant. (Evolution). Nothing you guide me to will make me change my mind, because I have already been delivered. I am bought by the blood of Jesus, and that my friend, you never lose. So what is the point in me reading about evolution? Why would you WANT me to read things that ultimately could cause confusion at best, in my mind? Satan would love for me to venture in there. He wants to rattle and stir up the believers into chaos and confusion. I realize you don’t believe in Satan, but I do. (Read Revelation if you want to learn of God’s plan for eventually destroying Satan).
You don’t have to listen to those sermons. I only suggested them because this man’s method of teaching the bible (called, “Expository preaching”) was what changed my life. When he taught me about Paul in Romans 7, that for me was when it all “clicked” and I have never been the same. I accidently found this website the other day, searching for something else. I skimmed thru the above debate, and felt led to post what I did. Whether or not I read your suggested link, I still hope you will take a couple hours of your time to listen to my suggestions. It isn’t for me, this is for you. Learning more about evolution won’t change where I go when I die. But you hearing the truth of God spoken to you… that will never leave you, and may bring you to a place where you come to know the God of your creation. The God who loves you and calls you to personally belong to Him. You have something to benefit here, not me.
Where’s the proof in that preacher’s words? Can’t answer that. But I can say, thru his words came the proof to my heart. God speaks thru his annointed ones. I can’t show physical proof, I can only testify that there was real change, conversion, in the depths of who I am. I now live with hope, with peace, with my sights focused upwards, not in this world. I live with comfort when my life has struggles, because I have a God in my heart who loves me and hurts when I hurt. The proof is in the heart of one who is truly converted.
But I guess you will have to experience that for yourself, before you will ever come to believe it.
Geoffrey my friend, please listen to those sermons. You may gain the universe.
In Christian love,
Colleen
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/audiolessons.shtml
Scroll to the very bottom to listen to the Atheist debate…
Where is Geoffrey? I wanted to hear from him after he followed Colleen’s advice. I have not been there myself, so I do not have a clue what the preacher teaches, but I am interested in Geoffrey’s response.
Colleen,
Despite your unwillingness to visit the web sites I suggested, I have visited yours. Here are my comments on them:
1) The preacher web site: No revelations here. He just preaches. Zero evidence. He says things like, “If you’re mean to my son, I’m gonna hate you.” And “If you’re nice to my son, I’m gonna love you.” He is basically saying that his god thinks like him in these matters, so we shouldn’t hate his god’s son, or else his god shall smite us. How does he know this? Is there any evidence whatsoever? Of course not. It’s a fairy tale that was invented way back before man knew anything about natural laws, cells, genes, gravity, etc. In those days, it was the best thing going. But now we know better. At least those who care to learn can know better. But some prefer to remain in darkness.
Try this: For every statement made in the debate, by both sides, apply one simple question: How do we know that? The pro-science arguments can answer this question. The religionist can only say, “Because the Bible says so.” Oh, and this favorite: “I just know.” In science, the answers are there for anyone who cares to learn them.
2) The debate web site: Of course, the pro-religionist gives zero evidence. He just says things like, “How can a creation not have a creator?” What a ridiculous argument. My car creates exhaust. Would you call my car a creator? If so, fine. There is no reason to believe that everything in the universe was not created by nature, via natural laws. Therefore, nature is the creator. No god required.
Here are my comments about your other remarks:
Re: “I may skim thru these [evolution links] a bit, but i’m certain they won’t make much sense to me.” These links contain material on evolution written in very basic, non-technical, easily-understandable terms. All you need is the will to learn. Feel free to ask me if you would like my help through any rough spots. That is a serious offer.
Re: “because you are a visitor in Christian forum, you are the one treading on foreign territory.” Colleen, I was involved in this debate before you showed up. Ron doesn’t seem to mind debating, do you Ron? It doesn’t matter how many people here agree with one side or the other. In a debate, logic rules, not popularity. If you don’t like it, then stick with people who think, speak, and act like you do.
Re: “The Christians in here are already solid in their conversion and will not change their minds. They can’t–it’s impossible!” Then you find it impossible to change your mind to accommodate solid, scientifically proven facts. You may as well disbelieve gravity, light, and the rest of the universe while you’re at it. That’ll show those scientists!
Re: “Instead, the Christians should be praying that God will convince YOU to explore His plan.” I have explored his plan, and it’s not that great. Here’s part of it: Tell Joshua to invade Canaan and kill all of the inhabitants, including children. How loving he is! Here’s another excerpt of his grand plan: Have the Nazis kill 6 million Jews, and disregard all of their prayers for rescue. But Colleen, don’t question your god’s reasons. Just be quiet and think happy thoughts. And here’s my personal favorite part of the divine plan: Show great love for humans by having Jesus killed for our sins. Brilliant! Here’s your all-powerful god, trying to figure out a way to keep from sending us to hell: “How can I stop myself from burning everyone’s souls for eternity? Hey, I’ve got it! I’ll create a baby boy, and when he grows up, I’ll have the Romans kill him! That should stop me!” Colleen, this makes sense to you?
Re: “I am bought by the blood of Jesus.” See above. Yes, if I wanted to save my children, I’d have another child and git me someone else to kill him. Then all the others would be saved! This makes sense? Can you kindly describe to me, in detail, the process by which you are purchased with blood? If you can’t, then how can you say it makes sense?
Re: “So what is the point in me reading about evolution? Why would you WANT me to read things that ultimately could cause confusion at best, in my mind? Satan would love for me to venture in there. He wants to rattle and stir up the believers into chaos and confusion.” OH NO, YOU GOT ME! Yes, I’m the TOOL OF SATAN! The Church Lady couldn’t have said it better. Learning is EVIL! That gray matter inside your skull was an ACCIDENT and never should have been put in there.
Keep in mind that the evolution web site to which I referred you is filled with facts that would explain a great deal to you about how biology works. The web site belongs to the University of California at Berkeley, one of the world’s top institutions of learning.
Is this how you react to other kinds of knowledge as well? When you learned to read, did your mind wretch in spasms of chaos and confusion? Do you regret learning to read? There’s a well-known sarcastic statement, “Don’t confuse him/her with the facts.” It means that he/she sticks to his/her opinion regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary. I never thought I would actually see someone say this about themselves.
Would you like everyone to adopt your fear of learning? How about your doctor? Would you like him/her to understand how evolution changes disease (giving rise to drug-resistance, for example)? Many of our antibiotics are no longer useful, because the evolution of antibiotic-resistant diseases was not understood by many doctors. You apparently see no lesson to learn here.
Colleen, since you do not care to discover how things work in this world and this universe, you might as well just go back to sleep and leave the informed decision-making to those of us interested in learning. The age of faith-based pseudo-knowledge are rapidly drawing to a close.
Hello Geoffrey! Hadn’t checked in here a while… glad to see you here.
Thanks for replying!
Allow me to dive right in…
1) To answer your question in #1, “How do we know that?”
Which I assume you mean ‘anything’, in the bottom-line of what Christians believe?
Answer: Because Christians are changed from the inside-out. God transforms the heart and gives us (Christians) knew thoughts and desires–something a non-Christian will not come understand and know until they put their faith in Jesus.
2) You say, ‘the pro-religionist gave zero evidence’…
Again, how does one show evidence of a transforming heart? The evidence is known and felt on the inside, which, until you put your faith in Jesus, you will not come to know (and incidently keep sweating searching for answers you are never going to find).
From here I will reply to your re:s in order:
re:1 – Science has not nor cannot prove evolution to the extent you are trying to convince yourself of. The missing links are still just that… missing.
re:2 – I never believed Ron minded you being here, but I knew the opposite to be true. You missed my point. My point was, you are at a Christian blog trying to convince Christian folks of evolution. What i’m saying is, a true Christian will not change their mind, because it is impossible for them to by the new nature of Jesus that is within them. You say, “Then you find it impossible to change your mind to accommodate solid, scientifically proven facts.” and I say again, science has never, nor will it ever prove evolution to the point of say, “the big bang theory.” And I never said i didn’t like a debate or forum such as this. It’s by accident i even found this forum… divine intervention, perhaps?
re:3 – To respond to your Old Testament remark about Joshua killing children, (and/or any other comments based on bad things God “allows” to happen), I will quote from a website that provides tremendous amounts of information on so many various topics, including evolution. From LivingWaters.com, the question posed was:
***
“God told Joshua to kill every man, woman, and child, and He killed masses of people in Revelation. If that’s your ‘God of love,’ I want nothing to do with Him!”
The answer:
“God didn’t confine His wrath to the Canaanites, or to those mentioned in Revelation. He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God’s Law. Every one of us is waiting on death row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God (10 Commandments). We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to.”
***
As for the Nazis killing the jews remark… I’ll quote from WayoftheMaster.com (it’s long, it’s a tad off-topic from where you started but i think eventually covers where you are going with it.) From “The Jews, the Holocaust, and the Presence of God” by Ray Comfort:
***
”In January of 2000 a well-known ex-televangelist said on CNN’s Larry King Live, “I believe that every person who died in the Holocaust went to Heaven.” He was very sincere, and if he was seeking the commendation of the world, he surely got it with that statement. Who in the world wouldn’t see what he said as being utterly compassionate? Let’s however, take a look at the implications of his heartfelt beliefs. His statement did seem to limit salvation to the Jews who died in the Holocaust, because he added “their blood laid a foundation for the nation of Israel.” If the slaughtered Jews made it to Heaven, did the many Gypsies that died in the holocaust also obtain eternal salvation? If his statement does include gentiles, is the salvation he spoke of limited to those who died at the hands of Nazis? Did the many Frenchmen who met their death at the hands of cruel Nazis go to Heaven also?
Perhaps he was saying that the death of Jesus on the Cross covered all humanity, and that all will eventually be saved–something called “Universalism.” That means that salvation will also come to Hitler and the Nazis that killed the Jews. However, I doubt if he was saying that. Such a statement would have brought the scorn of his Jewish host, and of the world whose compassion has definite limits.
If pressed, he probably didn’t mean that solely Jews in the camps went to Heaven, because that smacks of racism. He was more than likely saying that those who died were saved because their death came about in such tragic circumstances. That then means that Jesus was lying when He said, “I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.” There is another way to Heaven–death in a Nazi concentration camp. Does that mean that the many Jews who died under Communism went to Heaven? Or is salvation limited to German concentration camps?
If their salvation came because of the grim circumstances surrounding their death, does a Jew therefore enter Heaven after suffering for hours and then dying in a car wreck . . . if he was killed by a drunk driver who happened to be German? Bear in mind that his suffering may have been much greater than someone who died in minutes in a Nazi gas chamber.
Many of the unsaved think that we can merit entrance into Heaven by our own suffering. Their error was confirmed on Larry King Live by the sincere, compassionate man of God. They may now disregard “Neither is there salvation in any other. There is no other Name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” They can now save themselves by the means of their own death . . . if they suffer enough.
The ex-televangelist was concerned that his indiscretions of the 80’s brought discredit to the Kingdom of God. However, those actions fade into history compared to the damage done by saying that there is another means of salvation outside of Jesus Christ, on a program watched by untold millions around the world. Who on earth needs to repent and trust in Jesus, if millions entered the Kingdom without being born again? No one.
***
I hope you gained good insight there.
Second half of re:3… Yes, it makes perfect, wonderful sense to me.
God knew i’d never make it on my own (to Heaven), so He gave me another way. A mediator who willingly died a substitutionary death for my sins and for yours Geoffrey, so we can make it make it into God’s sinless, perfect and holy Heaven, simply by trusting in Jesus and repenting of our sins.
re:4 – How am i “bought” by the blood of Jesus? Because God promises this to me in His scriptures. Do you not know the story? It goes like this in a nutshell… Man wasn’t doing so good on his own, and God loves man so much He had to do something. He sent His son Jesus to come to earth to live a perfect, sinless life so that we might believe… perform great miracles (walking on water and calming the storm with his hand, turning water into wine, healing the sick and the blind, raising the dead–you get the picture) so that we might believe… He fulfilled all the old testament prophesies written about the ‘coming messiah’ so that we might believe… Then the time came, when he told his disciples His time had come, to basically die! They didn’t understand, but Jesus did. He knew the whole picture, and the necessity of mankind needing a reedemer. God didn’t force this upon him like your tone suggests above, He volunteered to do this. On the cross, He took on the sins of the world, and put them to death with Him. 3 days later He conquered sin and death when He rose from the dead. Jesus shed a lot of blood during His torture and crucifixion, so in essense, His blood paid the price for my sins.
re:5 – Now you are being silly. I never said you were the tool of satan. What does it matter to you anyways–you don’t believe in satan. But yes, satan will use any means necessary to try and confuse (especially) Christians. Even if it’s in a forum, where someone directs them to another forum that tries to discredit God.
In response to your last 3 paragraphs – I’ll remark to this one: “It means that he/she sticks to his/her opinion regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary.” You offer no evidence my friend. How can lil ol’ Geoffrey, offer anything above and beyond what God himself has already revealed to us? You have nothing new under the sun to offer.
No fear of learning here. I strive to learn more every day! Sure there are degrees of evolution–and things do evolve. But not to the extent that nullifies God. You just pointed me in a direction that simply doesn’t interest me. Give me scripture, and new things are revealed to me all the time. I love learning what the Bible has to share, offer and reveal–HOPE!
What does believing in evolution offer to the soul?
Last paragraph – you are very mistaken. Again, i love learning new things. I love history, i love science, (okay i hate math), and i love watching prophesies being fulfilled in my generation. It’s all very exciting–God’s universe is filled with excitement! And what excites me the most, is not only do I get to experience life and learning here on earth, I also get to experience the majesty of Heaven someday. With Jesus… the lover of my soul!
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Geoffrey, Having read some of your thoughts and answers to Colleen, the last thing I want to do is argue with you. I could never change your mind. If you will, however, allow me to point out some things about the message of the Bible and the God of the Bible, I believe that it might at least help you to see Christians from a different perspective.
Jesus said in John 17:3, “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” In another place He stated, “I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” John 10:10. In John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life…”
In a world where we are born to die, Jesus came with a message of life. If you go back to the book of Genesis, you find that in the Garden there was placed a tree of life. The only reason man was driven from the garden was to prevent him from eating from this tree of life and living in a sinful condition forever, separated from Holy God. With the introduction of sin, our mortality rate became 100%. We may kick at the pricks, but as an uncle of mine said recently, you can’t beat ‘old age’. Watch old movies and old TV shows and notice how many of those actors and actresses are no longer around. Check out neighborhoods and churches and you find from one year to the next that there are empty places that friends, loved ones, neighbors once filled.
Mortal man has many options concerning how to live his life, but in reality, he has nothing that can change the outcome stated above. Nothing, that is unless there is an intelligent designer who set the laws of this universe into motion. Physically we die, but God has given us a spiritual life. People for ages have sought a ‘religion’ that would offer some hope, but in reality all have been, by their own admission, manmade. All, that is, except Christianity. Christ is the light, the hope, and the only way for a man to be reconciled to his Creator. Every other religion known to man has been man reaching into darkness of sin trying to find hope. Only in the Bible to we find God reaching down to mankind and showing us the way that He has provided for us to be reunited with Him.
It is very obvious that you do not like the way he chose to do this and you think it was unnecessary, but you do not see the forces of spiritual warfare that are being fought daily and we cannot know all of the reasons for God’s plan. When Jesus was on earth and men began to realize that He was not going to establish an earthly kingdom many turned back from following Him. Jesus turned to his disciples and asked, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” John 6:67-68
Knowing God through experience is radically different than knowing about God from a theology textbook. Peter knew HIM. Christians who know Him may have a hard time explaining it to someone who is trying to reason it out and decide if they think God’s plan makes sense or if that is how it should be done, but those who have received Him by faith and have come into a personal relationship with Him know the way Peter knew. I said in the beginning of this that I can never change your mind, but your mind will be changed if you meet the Person. Geoffrey, I am praying that He will reveal himself to you.
Jan,
I could take issue with many points you make. For example: “The only reason man was driven from the garden was to prevent him from eating from this tree of life and living in a sinful condition forever….” Apparently, this goal of preventing us from living in sin forever was not achieved, because that is the same reason given for your god having his son killed. Why didn’t his perfect plan work the first time?
I could go on, but logic seems to carry no weight in your world. In my previous postings, I have presented many logical arguments. It seems impossible to get religionists to respond directly to these. You haven’t. Instead, religionists quote the Bible, as you have. They are unable to prove that any of the divine claims in Bible are true. Therefore their arguments are based on nothing. You call it faith. But faith is simply a belief held in the absence of knowledge. Does logic count for nothing?
Geoffrey,
As I said, I will not be able to change your mind and do not feel arguing would be productive. It is by faith that we please God. Hebrews 11:1 says that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” You asked me two questions and I appreciate your questions and would like to answer them to your satisfaction. The answers, however, are found in the Bible and it is when we reach the END of ourselves and our own logic and abilities that we “Through faith” begin to “understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God…”
If you would like more information on the subjects we discussed, Hebrews chapter 11 is a chapter on faith. Revelations 22 gives some information about the tree of life. As for me explaining God’s perfect plan, it would be presumptious of me to do that without referring you to God’s word.
One thing that I would like to share with you. I am not a person who has never had a realistic, logical thought and I am not a person who closed my mind and accepted a belief because I am too dumb or afraid to discard it. I can honestly tell you that when the Lord revealed Himself to me, I did not understand very well, but I knew at that time and I believed that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. From that moment on, He has held me in His grip. There have been times when I had doubts, have been unfaithful, and have been angry with God, but He has never left me and He has always pulled me back with an invisible cord. While I cannot see this cord, it is as real to me as this computer on which I post. Jesus promises His own that He will neither fail nor forsake us and this has been a reality in my life. I can only tell you about that which what I know.
No person was here when the worlds were formed and we were not here when the laws of physics or motion were put into place. Whatever we believe about life, we believe by faith. Misplaced faith is very dangerous.
But you HAVE closed your mind. You do not seek nor care to understand what is already known about the origin or the universe, life, and humankind. You prefer to follow a belief system that you cannot understand. I confess, I don’t understand it either. It is riddled with internal inconsistencies that I can point out to you if you are even the least bit interested in thinking about them.
Yes, we all take some things on faith. But faith is the absence of knowledge. Logic tells us the what we take on faith is NOT NECESSARILY true. It requires humility. You are preaching that what you take on faith is ABSOLUTELY true. It has no foundation beyond the self, and is thus self-centered. This is the key difference between the religionist and the scientist. Some of us seek to maximize logical understanding and minimize what we have to take on faith. You seem anxious to do the opposite. Avoiding logic does not make sense.
Hi Geoffrey,
I’m waiting on Ron to post my last reply to you. For some reason it never posted.
In the meantime, do you see here–that you are desperately searching for answers? It’s like you come here to see if you can get a “Christian” (someone you have come to know as immovable) to abandon their beliefs, even if only for a second, to have commonality with you–a non-believer–based on logic. It’s a challenge for you, I’m guessing because if you see that happen, then you feel validated in your quest to truly believe in evolution.
You are begging for this one solid, hit-you-over-the-head piece of evidence or proof, that will make you go, I GET IT. I HOLD THE ANSWER–THE KEY TO MY EXISTENCE. but that will never ever happen. You are searching for something you are never going to find.
I am convinced you would never have come into a Christian forum, if you were firmly and solidly planted in your evolutional beliefs. Something inside of you is battling for truth, and I hope you look upwards to find it.
Paul, in the New Testament. Research him. Here is a man who hated Christians so much he had many murdered. That was until Jesus revealed himself to him. Then the life change came… the passion in this man with the will of a bull, was so humbled and moved to preach of the Lord Jesus Christ, unto his own brutal death.
My point is, Paul never expected to change His mind… but God had other plans for Him. Can happen to anyone, and often does. 🙂
Welcome back Colleen. If you trace the discussion back to its roots, you’ll find that I came here because Ron Paul claimed that evolution was “only a theory,” and that he didn’t believe it. So I came to explain what evolution really is. I didn’t come here specifically to target Christians. But it turns out that they seem to be the most threatened by evolution, as they had the most visceral anti-evolution response.
Your psychic analysis of my inner thoughts is completely off the chain. Something inside of me is not “battling for the truth.” However, I do seek the truth, and I’m willing to always learn and to question my own beliefs in order to arrive at the truth. You and your fellow religionists have demonstrated that you are not. You believe that to question the Bible is to be evil. This is what those whose livelihoods depend on the Bible have convinced you to believe, and you’ve swallowed it. And for you, it’s so much easier to claim the truth without really searching for it. Just accept what you’re told and then sit in judgement of those who don’t. They’re bad, don’t listen to them. Just block them out. What could be easier? Just obey the preacher. Sure beats studying.
In the sciences of evolution, gravity, light, genetics, and others, you would find a great deal of truth that explains many of the mysteries that religion was once invented to explain. You would find good people who do have a moral code, who do love their families, and who do care about what happens to this planet.
Hello Geoffrey,
Can I please ask, that you not refer to Christians as “religionists.” We are not in a lump sum with all other religions, as we stand apart as believing in one way to eternity in Heaven thru Jesus. What other religious folks have shared with you, is most likely not the same beliefs we as Christians hold to.
I have not researched into the roots of this topic and where you came from, but I do know you keep coming back. You admit you are questioning your own beliefs and searching for truth, whereas we (Christians) do not question our beliefs and are no longer searching for truth. Just one big difference between a Christian and an unbeliever. I don’t believe Christians are threatened by evolution as you state. We are simply secure in our beliefs that God created the world. If you believed an apple was red, would you waste your time researching that perhaps it really isn’t red, when you have a clear understanding that it IS indeed, red?
What exactly guided you to think that if you question the bible, it’s evil? And you say, “This is what those whose livelihoods depend on the Bible have convinced you to believe…” Um, no, because “those” you refer to would be humans, and Christianity is not based on what other humans try and convince us of. It’s based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven, who sent Jesus that He may come into our hearts and transform them. I have swallowed nothing… but I have accepted Jesus as my one true Lord and Savior.
You say, “And for you, it’s so much easier to claim the truth without really searching for it.” Yes I claim truth. God breathed it, Jesus spoke it, and I believe it and have been changed by it. Why do you think I must continue searching for it? I have already found truth, and need not search any more. Would you keep searching for something you already have? Makes no sense. You are missing it, and therefore keep searching.
“Just accept what you’re told and then sit in judgement of those who don’t. They’re bad, don’t listen to them. Just block them out. What could be easier? Just obey the preacher. Sure beats studying.” …That comes across a bit negative… Why do you say that? Listen to whom? Who is “them”? I listen to my heart Geoffrey, and I listen to wonderful teachers whom God has gifted with the means to teach His word. I do study… but not that of which leads to nowhere. Life is too short for that.
Lastly, sure there are many truths to science. God gave man wonderful talents, skills and gifts to explore into his universe and the things of his universe. It’s a wonder out there with many magnificent things to behold and still discover. But science has not proven evolution to the extent of the big bang theory (something I mentioned in my other post, if it ever posts), nor will it ever. God already gave us all the answers. You have the choice whether or not you choose to believe Him.
As for the good moral code remark and families who love each other and care about the planet, etc., here is a quote from http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/browse.shtml: “Jesus said that only God is good. The only “goodness,” or righteousness, that the believer has comes from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). The Bible tells us that, without Christ, man is corrupt and filthy; “there is none that does good, no, not one” (Psalm 14:3).
I like where Jan was going in her post above… trying to bring you to recognize and ponder the fact that you will die… And then what Geoffrey? Food for the worms? Is that all you think you are? What a brilliantly cruel trick of mother nature if that is all this world is–a huge fabrication that some omnipotent being invented–er, wait, that some nothingness of nothingness just happened to become and expand into something so huge… wait, that makes no sense either. Okay, I’ll play along and seek the answer on your side. Putting the undeniable and unmistakably transformed heart aside that only happens upon ones faith in Christ and the conversion that follows… putting that aside, and IF Christianity were a hoax… It still makes more sense to believe in God as Creator of the universe, than to believe in all of what we see and know to have evolved, not to mention what we have not seen yet and still do not know. In a universe that has no end, isn’t is a possiblility we only know one percent of one percent of what exists? Okay then, so evolved from what? How? Please explain? Are you saying that in your links you are leading us all to… that science has clearly without doubt, concluded and explained that all of the universe evolved from nothing? Because that is the only option aside from God creating the universe……..
(okay, my post from a day or two did not show up on my computer earlier today, so i re-submitted it a second time. now they are both are there (40-41). thank you ron for posting it (well, them), as i missed it before and stated so.)
Geoffrey,
Concerning your remark that I have a closed mind.
Of the following, who would you describe as having a closed mind?
Those who looked logically at the sun going down and rising each day and decide that it has to revolve around the earth, or Copernicus who believed that the earth revolved around the sun.
Those who believe that all things are possible are those who believe that nothing is possible unless you are able to see the logic of the situation.
Science is not something that man has discovered that helps him “overcome” his need for faith. Science is a tool or discipline that God has given mankind to use in the study of His creation. You do not have to close your mind and fear science to be a Christian. God will allow us to learn many things about the earth and universe, but ultimately, He is in control. We may misunderstand what we find and we may misinterpret or even misuse the information, but the fact that God allows it is not a threat and you do not have to close your mind to believe.
These men were both scientist and believers.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html