Are You Good Enough to go to Heaven?

211 thoughts on “Are You Good Enough to go to Heaven?”

1. Colleen – Shortly I will post my reply to both of your lengthy postings. Hopefully Ron will allow my lengthy response.

2. Colleen – You posted two lengthy postings. I’ll address them both here, starting with the first:

   1) “Christians are changed from the inside-out. God transforms the heart and gives us (Christians) knew thoughts and desires–something a non-Christian will not come understand and know until they put their faith in Jesus.”

   In order for me to better understand the process of becoming a Christian, let’s break it down. Step 1 would be to “put your faith in Jesus.” Step 2 is when your god gives you the thoughts and ideas that allow you to know that you’ve chosen right. Do I understand correctly?

   Regarding Step 1: How exactly does one put one’s faith in Jesus? If I wanted to do that, how would I go about it?

   2) “[H]ow does one show evidence of a transforming heart? The evidence is known and felt on the inside.”

   How does one distinguish this from self-delusion? All the symptoms are the same. The murderer known as “Son of Sam” was certain that he was getting instructions from a neighbor’s dog. Schizophrenics see and hear life-like hallucinations that they cannot distinguish from reality. This is why it is vital to judge perception against an objective source. If Christianity or any belief has serious logical flaws, then I don’t care how good it makes you feel, I am not going to drink that Kool-Aid.

   3) …”which, until you put your faith in Jesus, you will not come to know (and incidently keep sweating searching for answers you are never going to find).”

   Sweating?? Who’s sweating? I love searching and discovering! How dull life would be otherwise! Why do you view searching as a negative? What better definition of an anti-intellectual than one who dislikes the search for knowledge!!

   4) “Science has not nor cannot prove evolution to the extent you are trying to convince yourself of. The missing links are still just that… missing.”

   This statement is factually, scientifically wrong. Life on Earth has changed through the millenia. This is a simple fact. This is evolution. There was a time when humans did not exist, but other life forms did exist. There was a time when birds did not exist, but other life forms did exist. Thus, life on earth has changed. Evolution is a fact. The THEORY of Evolution seeks to explain how those changes occurred. There are still some gaps in the theory, but it’s quite solid nonetheless, and the gaps are being filled in a little more every day.

   And what “missing links” are you talking about? Do you mean that we have to find every single animal that leads to every single other animal? The fossils we’ve found are spectacular and constitute an enormous body of evidence already. And fossil evidence is corroborated by genetics, physics, chemistry, and other branches of science.

   5) “I say again, science has never, nor will it ever prove evolution to the point of say, ‘the big bang theory.’”

   See above. Not sure why you’re trying to complare it to the Big Bang theory, but it’s really irrelevant. Evolution has already been proven to have happened.

   6) Your explanation of why it was OK for Joshua to kill children: “God didn’t confine His wrath to the Canaanites, or to those mentioned in Revelation. He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity….”

   Bottom line: Then you believe that it was OK for Joshua to kill children. It was OK for him to take his sword and rip open a child’s heart. It was OK to decapitate and otherwise hack a child to death. And not just one child, but every last child in Jericho. What unimaginable pain for the victims and their families to see their loved ones slaughtered, and then to be slaughtered themselves. Thanks for the morality lesson.

   7) “As for the Nazis killing the jews remark… I’ll quote from WayoftheMaster.com (it’s long, it’s a tad off-topic from where you started but i think eventually covers where you are going with it.)….”

   No, it’s totally off-topic. I asked why your loving god ignored the prayers of the Jews (and others) as they suffered awful torture and death in the concentration camps. I was pointing out that prayer and belief did nothing to help them out of that situation. Your answer discusses how to get into Heaven, a different issue.

   8) “Yes, it makes perfect, wonderful sense to me…. [Jesus] knew the whole picture, and the necessity of mankind needing a reedemer…. He took on the sins of the world, and put them to death with Him.”

   Several questions come to mind here:
   A) What exactly does it mean to “take on” the sins of the world? This term is vague. Please clarify. How exactly does one go about “taking on” sin?
   B) How does a sin die? Is sin alive? How do we know? How do we know when sin is dead?
   C) If your god is all-powerful, why did he have to have Jesus killed? Why not just kill the sin?
   D) If killing Jesus was necessary, why did your god not just do it himself? Why get the Romans and the Jews to do his dirty work, bringing hatred up them? According to the Bible, your god had certainly done his share of killing before.
   E) Why do Christians not revere the Romans and Jews, and Judas as well, for being the implementers of your god’s Great Plan?

   Consider this alternate explanation of the life and death of Jesus: Jesus was born, became a great philosopher, and his ideas threatened the status-quo, so the keepers of the status-quo killed him. His miracles never happened. For example, when he fed the multitudes, they didn’t have enough bread, so he broke the bread into tiny pieces. Human storytelling being what it is, this act became magnified into a miracle. This makes infinitely more sense to me. No contortions of logic required.

   9) “God knew I’d never make it on my own…”

   Why not? Why didn’t he make you strong enough so you could make it on your own, and that way he wouldn’t have had to kill someone else to save you? Sounds like stupendously poor planning on his part.

   10) “Now you are being silly. I never said you were the tool of satan. What does it matter to you anyways–you don’t believe in satan. But yes, satan will use any means necessary to try and confuse (especially) Christians. Even if it’s in a forum, where someone directs them to another forum that tries to discredit God.”

   Guess I wasn’t being so silly, then, was I. In fact, I was being serious, using obvious sarcasm to make the point, which was that you view my attempts to educate you as possibly evil. I COULD be a tool of Satan, couldn’t I? You don’t know. Scary. Lucky for you, your god gives you tremendous strength against this imaginary creature.

   11) “You offer no evidence my friend.” Huh?? I’ve referred you to a great web site full of evidence. Real evidence, not the imaginary kind that only you know inside of yourself. You can even go back to the original experiments and analyze them yourself. You can even repeat the experiments yourself. The body of scientific knowledge is out in full view for anyone to take a swing at. Unlike your view of Christianity, in science one is not required to believe FIRST and receive confirmation later. In fact, that kind of faith is anathema to science, as it is not based on fact. Occasionally, someone takes a swing an connects; they have a valid criticism, and they propose a better way of looking at nature. But rather than weakening the science-derived body of knowledge, such logic-based criticism only makes it stronger. This is why the body of knowledge uncovered by science is so solid. It’s been rigorously questioned and tested. And it works, whether you believe in it or not.

   12) “Sure there are degrees of evolution–and things do evolve.”

   It’s taken you this long to make that simple statement that you actually DO believe in evolution. This after telling me, “[Y]ou are at a Christian blog trying to convince Christian folks of evolution. What i’m saying is, a true Christian will not change their mind….” And “You offer no evidence my friend.”

   Well, apparently SOMEONE has offered you evidence. So welcome aboard. Now that we’ve agreed that evolution is a fact, to what extent do things evolve, in your opinion?

   13) What does believing in evolution offer to the soul?” Please define “soul,” and I will attempt to answer your question.

   14) “Give me scripture, and new things are revealed to me all the time. I love learning what the Bible has to share, offer and reveal–HOPE!”

   Great, you study the Bible and leave the study of nature to those of us who are interested in it. And hope your doctor is one of us.

   Have you ever studied the history of the Bible itself? I strongly suggest that you do. You will find that humans decided which of the gospels to include and which to exclude. Humans made mis-translations that persist in your version of the Bible. It is clear that the Bible is a book written by humans and full of errors, omissions, and convenient editing. Here’s an interesting observation from Wikipedia:

   “Many academic scholars and historians who read the Bible today maintain that it contains no accurate predictions of any past or future events. They claim that in some cases, transcribers of the scriptures may have inserted prophecies or attributed work that was written much later to earlier authors. In other cases, they say it is the readers of the Bible who are creating what they see as “prophecy”. This common tendency is known as postdiction–retroactive clairvoyance, or prediction after the fact. In the last century this view has been accepted by some more liberal theologians.”

   ****************************************
   Now I will reply to your subsequent posting:

   15) “Can I please ask, that you not refer to Christians as “religionists.” We are not in a lump sum with all other religions….”

   Sorry, all religious people are religionists, which simply means that they adhere to a religion.

   16) “[W]e (Christians) do not question our beliefs and are no longer searching for truth.”

   Great, now you can go back to sleep.

   17) “We are simply secure in our beliefs that God created the world. If you believed an apple was red, would you waste your time researching that perhaps it really isn’t red, when you have a clear understanding that it IS indeed, red?”

   What if you were color-blind, so your perception didn’t match reality? You may think a green light is red, causing you to clog traffic. Wouldn’t you want to know? Or would you prefer to believe that everyone honking their horns at you is wrong?

   18) “What exactly guided you to think that if you question the bible, it’s evil?”

   I don’t believe that. I question the Bible all the time. You claim that Satan might try to convince you to learn something that contradicts the Bible. Thus, you seem to believe that learning things that contradict the Bible could be evil.

   19) “And you say, “This is what those whose livelihoods depend on the Bible have convinced you to believe…” Um, no, because “those” you refer to would be humans, and Christianity is not based on what other humans try and convince us of. It’s based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven.”

   Um, no, you state below, “I listen to wonderful teachers whom God has gifted with the means to teach His word..” So your beliefs are not “based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven.” Your beliefs are also influenced by these very human teachers.

   20) “Yes I claim truth. God breathed it, Jesus spoke it, and I believe it and have been changed by it. Why do you think I must continue searching for it?”

   Because you have no objective evidence for your “truth.” As in your red apple example, you could be totally incorrect in your beliefs, and you’d never know it. You say that your god “already gave us all the answers.” Aren’t you glad your doctor went further and searched out scientific knowledge? Would you rather he got your diagnosis from your god? If so, plenty of snake-oil hucksters would happily oblige you. If you had to choose one, would you rather place your health in the hands of Jesus, or medical science?

   21) “You are missing it, and therefore keep searching.” I am seeking knowledge that I don’t have yet. I seek to fill the gaps in my understanding of the universe. Unlike your perception, mine is not flawless. I’ve learned that it is good to question my perception in order to minimize misperception. And I seek to correct myself when I am wrong. I have found that it is helpful to compare my perception against facts, and to build my beliefs on facts.

   22) “I do study… but not that of which leads to nowhere. Life is too short for that.”

   Life is short? What happened to that never-ending life that your god has given you?

   23) “As for the good moral code remark and families who love each other and care about the planet, etc., here is a quote from http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/browse.shtml: “Jesus said that only God is good. The only “goodness,” or righteousness, that the believer has comes from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). The Bible tells us that, without Christ, man is corrupt and filthy; “there is none that does good, no, not one” (Psalm 14:3).”

   By that awful description of non-Christians as “corrupt and filthy,” it is clear that you have an extremely lofty opinion of yourself. How predictable that the superiority of Christians is trumpeted in a book written by – – Christians. And how convenient that you don’t require any proof of this absurd and nasty claim.

   24) “[Y]ou will die… And then what Geoffrey? Food for the worms?”

   Of course! Do you know of any living thing that doesn’t rot when it dies? The worms have to eat too, after all. They play a valuable role in recycling once-living material. As they eat, they aerate the ground, making it suitable for growing crops. There is no shame in being worm-food. Worms are part of the cycle of life. I will gladly commit my corpse to them, or to any other living thing that needs it. Well, maybe not roaches.

   25) “In a universe that has no end, isn’t is a possiblility we only know one percent of one percent of what exists?”

   Yes, if not less.

   26) “Okay then, so evolved from what? How? Please explain? Are you saying that in your links you are leading us all to… that science has clearly without doubt, concluded and explained that all of the universe evolved from nothing? Because that is the only option aside from God creating the universe.”

   You are incorrect. There are many other possibilities, such as these:

   A) The universe has always existed, in one form or another. (My favorite.)
   B) More than one god created the universe.
   C) Brahma, the Hindu god of creation, created the universe.
   D) The Greek goddess Gaia created the universe.
   E) One of the Aztec gods created the universe.
   F) One of the Celtic gods created the universe.
   G) One of the Mayan gods created the universe.
   H) One of the Māori gods created the universe.
   I) One of the Norse gods created the universe.
   J) Oprah created the universe and lives among us in her current form.
   K) Some anonymous, humble god that hasn’t yet revealed itself created the universe but allows others to take all the credit.
   L) Satan created the universe and allows your god to take all the credit.
   M) Some combination of Norse and Hindu gods created the universe.
   N) Some combination of Norse and Greek gods created the universe.
   O) Norse and Greek gods created the universe with help from Satan.

   And by now even you could probably come up with many more possibilities.

3. Ron’s aware of the problem, so let’s see if he can work it out. Worst case, I’ll break it up into separate posts.

4. Not sure how that smiley face got in there. It’s supposed to read ” 8) “

5. Oops, it happened again. It should read “8” followed by a parenthesis. But it’s getting converted to the smiley face.

6. Geoffrey,

   You think too much. 🙂

   But you have wonderful, valid points it will take me a bit of time to address. I’m going to put time into this and get back to you when I can. I’ve been checking in here, anticipating your reply. Thank you for that, and stay tuned! …….

   ~Colleen

7. Geoffrey
   I am trying hard to stay out of the discussion that you and Colleen are having because as I said earlier, I do not believe that I have the power to change your mind. Nor do I believe that you will be argued into changing your position. It will take the moving of the Holy Spirit of God in your life and your coming face to face with the truth of Christ. At that point, you will make a decision…….

   Anyway, I did want to share a story with you concerning evolution and the soul of man, since that was the original topic.

   This, by-the- way, much of this is copied. The squirrel story is not original with me.

   Even the most ardent evolutionist behaviorally affirms that human life is distinct from animal life. Imagine Mr. Evolutionist driving along when he encounters a squirrel in the road, still writhing from being hit by a car. He slams on his brakes, jumps out of his car, and frantically dials 911 on his cell phone. “I’d like to report an injured squirrel! If the paramedics get here quickly, they may be able to save him!” But, alas, they are too late! The man sits by the squirrel corpse, sobbing, until the mortuary arrives. He will never forget this tragic scene.

   Ludicrous? Yes, but change the squirrel to a human being and that scene would be truly horrific. Why? Because we all recognize that people are distinct from animals. The reason, according to the Bible, is that people are created in God’s image; animals are not.

   The living soul sets us apart from animals. This is something to consider when you consider the evolutionary process. While there is change within species, evolution cannot account for the soul of man.

8. Hi Jan,

   This viewpoint you describe is the same human-centered we-are-God’s-favorites snobbery toward the rest of the biological world that kept the leaders of the Southern Baptist Conference from acknowledging the threat of global warming until LAST MONDAY (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/10/baptist.climate/). Too many religionists believe that we humans were put here by their god to do whatever we want to the earth and to the other creatures, because we’re just so darn special! Why are we the favorites of their god? Who knows? Your Bible only says that your god created us in his image. Why did he need a creature that looked like him? How superficial! And then that creature becomes his favorite! How narcissistic! Even if he existed, how could you worship such a disgusting being? Does he not see the beauty in a squirrel? Why does he want to banish squirrels from his eternal kingdom? What does he have against them?

   True, I don’t get as upset seeing a squirrel die as I do seeing a human die, on average. But it has nothing to do with whether or not we have souls, or whose image we were supposedly created in. It has to do with my empathy toward that person’s friends and family. I assume that they must be extremely sad having lost this person, and I feel sad for them. I find myself feeling sad also for the loss of family pets. And I feel sadder at the loss of someone’s beloved pet than I feel for the loss of Saddam, despite the fact that Saddam, according to your religion, had a soul and was created in your god’s image. Which would make you sadder? Given the choice of whose life to spare, would you choose Saddam’s over a loving family dog’s?

   And finally, just for my information, are families allowed to reunite with their family pets in heaven?

   By the way, my mind is open to the possibility that a god or gods exist. All I require is evidence. It would be extremely simple for your god to at least get me thinking that maybe he existed. I would meet with him anytime. All he has to do is show up and do a few miracles. If you had a son that you wanted to connect with, wouldn’t you show yourself? Or at the very least, make a phone call? Something direct like that? It seems this would be much more convincing than hiding behind a tree and asking someone else to deliver notes to the kid, and expecting him to know that you wrote them and to love you without having met you. This is the same as the supposed gods who have preachers/priests/mullahs/shamans serve as their intermediaries. Why would a god need a middle-man?

9. Jan – I replied a few days ago, but it’s awaiting moderation.

10. Dear Geoffrey,

    A little time has passed, and i’m still not sure where to start. I realize, debates exhaust me. I’m not good at them, and typically don’t want to get into them… Yet I’ve really enjoyed this correspondence so far and have loved the challenge it’s posed for me. I want to do my research, but there is soooooo much to find, so much to look into, and so many points i have to make to the so many points you will continue to make. I’m not really feeling like that is the route for me to take. But i definitely want to say something to you…

    We are so tiny in a huge universe. We know so little, but God gave us enough information in His word. He answers all our questions in the bible. This is God’s claim: He is the author and the creator of the universe. And to take that as truth, just makes sense! He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He always has been and always will be. It’s so hard for a tiny mind like ours to comprehend something so great, so huge. It’s hard to imagine eternity, and it’s hard to imagine space going on forever. And even if space ended somewhere, what’s on the other side of that? Since there is so much that we may never understand until we face God and ask Him, isn’t it much simpler to just trust Him? I think so. He gives us rules, and order, He gives us guidelines to follow, that richly bless us when we do. Like a parent raising up their child in the ways that are right, so God does this for us.

    I seek and find refuge in believing in Him and trusting in Him, because the overall plan in the scriptures fits together perfectly, from the very beginning (in Genesis) to the end that is to come. (in Revelation, when Christ returns and defeats Satan once and for all).

    This is a story of love. Period. Whatever bad things you find in the scriptures, you really need to understand the bible as a whole before picking apart pieces of it, and basing your judgement on those pieces. Jesus never killed anyone. Jesus never did ANYTHING considered as evil. He came to love. And His love followed Him to the cross. For you Geoffrey, and for me.

    It sounds like a far-fetched story on the surface, but once you dive into it, you are drawn in, and you realize you are a major player in the plan of God’s, who loves us each individually.

    Jesus promises to manifest Himself in those that seek Him and put their trust in Him. TO THOSE THAT SEEK HIM, and i stress that part.

    My prayer for you is, that you will approach God and ask Him to open your eyes and your heart. Just say to Him, ‘God, I WANT to know TRUTH. If that truth is you, start to move inside of me and bring me to know your Son Jesus. ‘Seek God and His plan for you, with an honest open heart, and you will be given your proof.

    I hope i come in here one day and see the awesome testimony of an atheist/agnostic, come to share his story of being converted and receiving a transformed and ever-changing heart by the love of His savior Jesus. I pray for that. I’m not through, I will keep an eye open in here and continue praying. God’s will is for you to receive Him, and if we pray according to His will, I believe it will be done.

    In Christian love,
    ~Colleen

    Chew on this:

    Amazing grace
    How sweet the sound
    That saved a wretch like me
    I once was lost, but now I’m found
    Was blind, but now I see
    ‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
    And grace my fears relieved
    How precious did that grace appear
    The hour I first believed
    My chains are gone
    I’ve been set free
    My God, my Savior has ransomed me
    And like a flood His mercy reigns
    Unending love, Amazing grace

    The Lord has promised good to me
    His word my hope secures
    He will my shield and portion be
    As long as life endures

    The earth shall soon dissolve like snow
    The sun forbear to shine
    But God, Who called me here below
    Will be forever mine
    Will be forever mine
    You are forever mine

11. I’m gonna jump back in. I’ve scan some of the debate over the last 2 months, but it would take another week read it all.

    Geoffrey, you want “evidence” of a creator. Yet the very things you cling too as proof there is no creator (science and nature) prove there is. I’ll agree it’s not proof of the God of the Bible — but it is proof of something what can design, create, sustain. For that there is a ton of evidence in archeology, voluminous manuscript evidence, and prophesy (which only convinces someone once you’ve studied the manuscript evidence).

    I can’t tell if you just want to debate, or if you really want to learn. If you want to learn there are many that pass by here that are willing to help you do just that. You may not realize it, but many have given you the same advice to pray and seek God. Up until know, it seems you are just standing there in God’s front yard yelling at him to come out of the house. Not the best approach. The Bible says to humble yourself and God will exhaust you.

    Why humble yourself? Because you are a sinner (law breaker). You (like anyone else reading this far down) have broken God’s law knowingly or have sinned against your own God given conscience. God, in his grace, has brought you that information here. You can repent (turn from your sin) and put your faith (and you have tons – we’ve all seen that) in God and the atoning sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.

    We are a few days away from celebrating that atonement and resurrection, Geoffrey. You should find a Bible believing church and go worship the God you continue to rail against. Repent of your sin and receive forgiveness.

    I’m not asking for your blind faith. You’ll have a lifetime to find the answers to your questions. Questions evolution doesn’t even try to address.

12. Regarding dogs in Heaven, i’ve had many serious thoughts on the subject. It ails me to think i may not see my beloved pets in Heaven, but then i encountered this in Romans chapter 8:18-22:

    “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now…”

    ***
    The bible states that CREATION awaits, not just MAN, to be set free into glory.

    So to answer your question, I personally believe dogs go to Heaven. 🙂

13. Hello Geoffrey,

    I read what you wrote to Jan and i have a few remarks i can’t sit by and not address. (Jan, please forgive me if i’m rude jumping in on your conversation).

    You wrote:

    ***”This viewpoint you describe is the same human-centered we-are-God’s-favorites snobbery toward the rest of the biological world that kept the leaders of the Southern Baptist Conference from acknowledging the threat of global warming until LAST MONDAY “***

    God doesn’t play favorites, and it is not snobbery as you indicate. It would be snobbery if Christians said, “HA HA, we have salvation and you don’t, and you never can nor will!” You are making the conscious choice not to accept Jesus. So it’s just the opposite. If we Christians were snobs, do you think we would care about you at all, to even have these discussions with you? It is compassion we extend to you, not snobbery.

    (and i personally won’t get into the ridiculous Al Gore/global warming thing.)

    You also wrote:

    ***”Why did he need a creature that looked like him? How superficial! And then that creature becomes his favorite! How narcissistic! Even if he existed, how could you worship such a disgusting being?”***

    This was just an awful, awful statement. It hurts my heart and soul to see someone so blindly mistaken, call God a ‘disgusting being.’ Jesus endured torture and death for you, even though you look upon Him this way. So very sad. Did you know when they were beating Jesus and hanging Him on the cross, He continued to pray for them? He asked God “to forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Talk about love and compassion! I pray He extends that to you.

    God delights in His creation. Superficial? No. Are you superficial if you want your children to resemble you? He made YOU in His image too. You are loved by Him, even though you won’t accept Him. God doesn’t claim favorites anywhere in scripture, that i am aware of. God loves ALL of His created ones, but only those that obey His commands (accepting/trusting in Jesus and repenting), get to share eternity with Him. You still have a choice here! You hold the playing card, not Him. If you reject Him, it is your own fault.

    More from you:

    “By the way, my mind is open to the possibility that a god or gods exist. All I require is evidence. It would be extremely simple for your god to at least get me thinking that maybe he existed. I would meet with him anytime. All he has to do is show up and do a few miracles. If you had a son that you wanted to connect with, wouldn’t you show yourself?”

    I knew someone who once said, “If God exists, why doesn’t He reveal Himself to me?” And i asked my pastor who said w/o missing a beat, “Because he isn’t the center of the universe.” His point was, because God already DID show up to man. He did plenty of miracles, and still does today. You think He owes YOU more? What makes you so special that God needs to do more to make you believe in Him? Was sending His son to die so brutally, not enough for you? What more do you really desire? If he forced Himself upon you, it would not be love. He gives each of us the choice and free will to choose to trust in Him or not. He did more than enough for me to believe, over 2000 years ago, and still continues blessing me life. I owe Him my entire heart and soul for what He did for me, and that is what i give to Him. He did more for me that i ever deserved, could ever deserve or ever can repay.

    I can see why you can’t believe in God, since your attitude towards Him is that of arrogance. You have no humility but heaps of pride. I don’t understand why, considering you are the one who is rejecting Him, not the other way around. Like Ron said, it’s about humbling oneself. Only then can you be exposed for Him, for Him to reveal Himself more to you.

14. PS–

    It’s Good Friday. I have some time on my hands. We are looking forward to heading to our church for Good Friday service. This weekend is such a wonderful reminder of Jesus, His life, His death, and His resurrection. I am my Beloveds and He is mine!

    Geoffrey, I wanted to answer a few of your previous questions…….

    ***In order for me to better understand the process of becoming a Christian, let’s break it down. Step 1 would be to “put your faith in Jesus.” Step 2 is when your god gives you the thoughts and ideas that allow you to know that you’ve chosen right. Do I understand correctly?***

    Yes, sounds correct to me! 🙂

    ***Regarding Step 1: How exactly does one put one’s faith in Jesus? If I wanted to do that, how would I go about it?***

    Start by praying. I posted it above… just humble yourself in prayer to God. Seek Him with your heart and desire to know His truth. Second, please read a bible. I think a terrific starting place is the book of John (4th book in the New Testament). God will do the rest.

    ***2) “[H]ow does one show evidence of a transforming heart?***

    I can’t answer that, you can only find our for yourself. See the answer to step one again.

    Back to evolution…

    ***And what “missing links” are you talking about?***

    The ones that link me to a banana.

    ***A) What exactly does it mean to “take on” the sins of the world? This term is vague. Please clarify. How exactly does one go about “taking on” sin?

    God appointed Jesus to die on behalf of man’s sins. He pays the debt of sin for those who trust Him. When i stand before God after i die, i have a mediator between me and God’s judgement of my sin. That is Jesus, so He took on my sin so i didn’t have to be found guilty. He did this for everyone, but only those that believe in Him get to be excused.

    ***B) How does a sin die? Is sin alive? How do we know? How do we know when sin is dead?***

    All of us sin, so sin is alive. We know by looking at the world around us.

    ***C) If your god is all-powerful, why did he have to have Jesus killed? Why not just kill the sin?***

    God wanted to enjoy those that truly love Him. That is why He gave us free will. If He forced us all to love Him, it would all be peachy but we’d all be no different from programmed robots. He doesn’t just correct all our mistakes, by killing our sin. Again, we’d be nothing more than programmed robots if He did!

    ***D) If killing Jesus was necessary, why did your god not just do it himself? Why get the Romans and the Jews to do his dirty work, bringing hatred up them?***

    You need to learn the whole story.

    ***According to the Bible, your god had certainly done his share of killing before.***

    You need to learn the whole story.

    ***E) Why do Christians not revere the Romans and Jews, and Judas as well, for being the implementers of your god’s Great Plan?***

    This question is a bunny trail question. It’s irrevelant, and i can’t speak for all Christians and what they revere, or not.

    ***“God knew I’d never make it on my own…”

    Why not?***

    Because I am a sinner.

    ***Have you ever studied the history of the Bible itself? I strongly suggest that you do. You will find that humans decided which of the gospels to include and which to exclude.***

    God claims to protect His word and I believe Him. It’s a perfect book–a perfect story from beginning to end. It took hundreds of years to write, which no one could pull off such a perfect story other than one brilliant author. (yes, GOD silly!)

    ***Um, no, you state below, “I listen to wonderful teachers whom God has gifted with the means to teach His word..” So your beliefs are not “based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven.” Your beliefs are also influenced by these very human teachers.***

    God appoints certain ‘men’ to help teach us. I can’t pick up a calculus book and just know everything. You learn thru the Calculus teacher, who teaches the book.

    ***“Yes I claim truth. God breathed it, Jesus spoke it, and I believe it and have been changed by it. Why do you think I must continue searching for it?”

    Because you have no objective evidence for your “truth.” ***

    Because I’m not searching for objective evidence. The evidence lives in my heart, and i also happen to believe in history.

    ***24) “[Y]ou will die… And then what Geoffrey? Food for the worms?”

    Of course! Do you know of any living thing that doesn’t rot when it dies?***

    Okay, i meant JUST food for the worms? Yes, our flesh will rot, but our souls live on. Our souls continue forever in Heaven or Hell.

15. Geoffrey,

    Sorry that I missed your post until a few minutes ago.

    Personally, your answer seemed to me like a diversion. The question I was posing was not about why God made man in His image (this is involves something much deeper than “looking like Him”), but rather whether evolution is reliable as a theory for the origin of man.

    As for your supposition concerning God, you said, “I would meet with him anytime. All he has to do is show up and do a few miracles.”

    May I tell you that He has already done this and many did believe.

    John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

    John 3:2 The same (Nicodemus) came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him

    John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

    Jesus, however, said that it is when we meet Him and have our need met by Him, that we will seek Him.

    John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

    John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    Geoffrey, the bottom line for you is this:

    Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Geoffrey, why don’t you get alone somewhere and prayerfully read the book of the Gospel of John found in the new testament of the Bible.

    Remember “whosoever” includes you.

16. Colleen, Jan, and Ron,

    Learn how to prove something. Your saying it doesn’t make it so. The Bible saying it doesn’t make it so. If you had been raised in Saudi Arabia, you’d be good little Muslims, and you’d be quoting from the Koran. I will address your other points later.

17. Geoffrey,
    Thank you for your response. You are absolutely correct when you state that saying so doesn’t make something true.

    Many times people do believe the religion of their fathers. Having being born in a country, however, does not always mean that a person will adhere to the religion primarily taught there or that we will always believe what we are taught as a child. Dr. Michael Youssef who is now a minister at the Church of the Apostles in Atlanta was born in a Muslim country and once a Muslim. Madelyn Murray O’Hare’s son was taught atheism, but he became a minister of the gospel of Christ. There are thousands of other examples.

    As for the ‘believing only what you have proof of’ part of your philosophy, please realize that none of us do this. We all live by faith. I did not know if the last plane that I boarded would actually be able to fly me safely from Miami to Atlanta, but I boarded it anyway. I wasn’t sure that the chair I sit in would hold me up until I tried it or if the medical treatment prescribed to me would help. The Bible teaches that we live by faith. II Corinthians states: “For we walk by faith, not by sight:” If this is true in the physical world, how much more does it hold true in the spiritual world. When God draws us unto Himself and we respond in faith, our journey begins, but you are correct that it does not begin with proof. It begins with faith. Jesus said, “If you have faith as a tiny grain of mustard seed…”

18. Geoffrey,

    Your saying, “The Bible saying it, doesn’t make it so,” does not make what you say so either!

    We’re down to, it’s your word, versus our word, versus God’s word. Who do you think you should believe? Faulty man? Or a divine God?

    The reality is this… you are here. You were created for a purpose. You are going to die. It could be any time. Think about that. If you died today without trusting in Jesus, it would be too late for you to change your mind. Sadly, you would stand before Him and hear Him tell you to depart, that He never knew you. The bible says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is powerful. Each and every human will face Him when they die, and confess He is Lord. Of course many non-believers will believe then, but it’s too late. God gives you the chance to know Him while you are here and alive.

    The thing is, if you really knew the scriptures, you would absolutely believe in them. The prophesies that have been fulfilled are remarkable, not a coincidence. And it makes sense. I keep stressing that. I only know a small amount of scripture, but know enough to believe in them because the story as a whole is that of brilliance. How did Isaiah know 700 years before Jesus, exactly who the messiah was? He described Jesus perfectly. That is just one prophetic example. There are so many in the bible! Look around you today… Many of the “end times” prophesies being fulfilled around us. It’s scary and fascinating at the same time.

    Besides, whose belief is better… yours, that basically gives no purpose to life, or the Christians, that believe in life eternal in glory with our Creator who loves us?

    If Christians wrong, at least we live with hope on earth of the eternal life spent with a beautiful God in a perfect kingdom. If you are wrong, you spend forever in darkness, apart from God where evil dwells.

    Do you realize that?

19. Sorry, I’ve been deluged and haven’t come up for air in a few weeks. Now I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I should be able to reply in the next few days.

20. Hi Geoffrey, Glad to know that you are still out there.

21. hey geoffrey, look forward to hearing from you!

22. Hi all – I’m glad too that you’re still here. I’ve enjoyed our discussion. It’s not often that people have the opportunity to debate religion in much depth and with civility.

    In light of many of your postings, it seems important to clarify what is meant by the term “believe.” For example, Colleen said, “You are making the conscious choice not to accept Jesus.” But this is not true. I do not choose my beliefs. My beliefs are shaped by the evidence. They are independent of what I want. If I needed a ride and wanted to believe that a cat was a horse, I couldn’t rationally do it. Even if someone promised me eternal life if I believed it, and eternal damnation if I didn’t, I couldn’t possibly believe that a cat was a horse. It’s not arrogance, but my honest view of reality. After evaluating all the evidence that I have found thus far in my life, I can come to no other conclusion but that there is not god, no Satan, no heaven, and no hell. If I’m wrong, and if I am sent to hell, I’ll go an honest man. I cannot state as true something that I believe is untrue. If that is what your god demands, then I’d rather go to hell than spend eternity with him, which would for me be an even worse hell. Meanwhile, in whatever time I have left on this earth, I will happily continue to reach conclusions through careful, logical study. Belief is not a choice.

23. hey geoffrey!

    first of all, i want to say that i also enjoy this “debate”, however, i personally, am not here for the purpose of debating, but rather, to share the gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone willing to listen. another proof of true conversion–that one who has Christ dwelling in them cannot help but remain silent about the awesomeness of Christianity and serving a God who so deeply loves us. i would hope you would find nothing less than “civility” in a Christian forum. i am not driven by aspiring to remain civil, i am driven solely out of love for those who do not know their personal Savior, Jesus. i remain prayerfully considerate of your feelings and beliefs, and understand it is God’s will for you to belong to Him and be a part of His glorious kingdom for eternity. i truly believe that over time your heart will soften and become more open to the presence of God who is patiently waiting for you to allow Him to come into your life and transform your heart into the likeness of His Son. i believe you do not have understanding, because their are blinders on you, keeping you from seeing the truth so boldly presented before you. time and prayer will change that, as it is God’s will for you! that’s awesome! and yeah yeah on the cat/horse analogy. there are so many factors to look into to lead you away from the truth. do you have a bible? if not, get a hold of one. read it online if necessary… but again, jan and i have both encouraged you to start by reading the book of John (4th book in the new testament). please, go against your own beliefs for a moment and just give it a shot to go ahead and pray to the one true God in heaven, asking Him to reveal himself to you as you read His words. just step outside of your own understanding and comfort zone and start with a little faith and trust that a God so magnificent who claims He loves you, will actually remove the scales form your eyes as you sincerely seek the truth. that is the very best i can advise. you sound sincere in your quest for truth and knowledge, and i believe you are willing to do this. i believe you will begin acknowledging something greater than your own understanding and realy witness the change in your own heart. please do this? it won’t take a long time. you have the time to give it a go, and i pray you will. open your heart to let God work in you, IN CASE HE IS REAL, right? you have nothing to lose by doing so. you have soooo much to gain.

    in the love of Jesus,
    ~colleen

24. here you are… try this. don’t forget to sincerely ask God to open your eyes and your heart before you begin to read:

    http://www.devotions.net/bible/43john.htm

25. Colleen, your “yeah yeah on the cat/horse analogy” confirms your statement that you are not interested in discussing the issues of faith.

26. the cat/horse analogy isn’t based on faith outside of your statement. you stated that because your real argument is based on rational logic and ultimately back to proof.

27. Colleen – Huh?

28. Colleen, I wish you and/or others would address my point that belief is not a choice. You are the one who stated, “You are making the conscious choice not to accept Jesus.” As I said above, it is not a choice. I would appreciate responders focusing on this very key point.

29. i’ll try my best to address it in depth sometime tomorrow.

30. GK. I’m not sure you’ll like my answer, but here’s my quick stab at it. All of us choose to “believe” something at some point. Another way of putting it is saying “I conclude…” But in the context of this discussion, it can be a distraction to focus solely on whether we are using the context correctly. Scripture says that faith is a gift. Is belief the same as having faith? If so, you may be right, you can’t choose to believe on your own. For me (as I’ve stated before) I studied the archaeological, prophetic and statistical data and concluded that the Bible is believable. Did I believe in God before I did my homework? Yes. But that was by choice. The evidence now overwhelms me to the point beyond reasonable doubt that I no longer consider belief a choice either. In this case my belief is a result of my conclusion.

    Some see the evidence and yet still deny what is before them. Why? Are they willfully ignorant? Are they blinded by God? Satan? Pride? Fear? That’s one I don’t think any of us can answer.

    But God does promise and all of us can testify that when we asked God to open any blindness in our own lives, he’s been faithful do it. Asking God sincerely “if you exist, allow me to know the truth so I might serve you” is a prayer he promises to answer. However, you have said time and time again if God exists he’s not the kind of God you want to serve anyway. But I’m drifting beyond the answer you requested. I’ll stop here for now.

31. geoffrey,

    i do believe, beliefs are a choice. i believe this because God makes it clear we are created with a free-will to choose. you can choose to believe a murderer isn’t a bad guy if they felt they were murdering for a good cause, or you can hold to the belief that killing is wrong, period. that killing is bad and by doing so it makes you a bad guy. (sorry–i’m not the best at analogies, but you get my drift.)

    you choose which way you want to believe.

    not a put-down here, but you lack knowledge in scriptures, therefore your heart is not being receptive to God’s offer. please don’t get me wrong, you certainly don’t have to know your bible before “being saved”, as some folks are saved on a whim of something particular happening in their life that pushed them to Jesus. God has is own ways and means by which He calls His chosen to Him.

    you are here, you are asking questions, you are searching, and i think you genuinely desire truth. see, my “belief” is you sincerely want to know the truth. i choose to believe this based all your posts, it doesn’t just so happen to be my belief about you, it’s my choice based on what i see and know, based on what you have revealed.

    i just happen to know what the truth is that you need. 🙂

    i am praying for you. i really am. i’m just praying that you fall head first and hard into the love of God……..

32. btw, i said that about scriptures, because if you read them, you would start to see a beautiful, promising picture unfold. like ron, you would start to see the overwhelming evidence in favor of God.

    i forgot to include that.

33. Ron – I would put your experience this way: Before you “did your homework,” you had a belief based on little information. It became a better-informed belief after you studied the matter. In both cases, it was a conclusion you reached based on the evidence that you observed.

    “Some see the evidence and yet still deny what is before them. Why? Are they willfully ignorant? Are they blinded by God? Satan? Pride? Fear?”

    I agree. In my observations, it is usually due to fear – the fear of being wrong. An honest man or woman accepts whatever the evidence shows, with the understanding that it could be proven wrong later. When asked about their opinion, they would say, “I believe X, Y, and Z, based on this evidence. I believe this evidence is unlikely to be proven wrong later, but that is a distinct possibility. For now, I will base my actions on what appears to be the truth.” Why should such a person be criticized, or worse, suffer eternal burning in hell? Yet, many religionists are taught that hell is just punishment for such a reasonable person. They are taught that there is something so vile in this person, so inexcusable, that they deserve extreme punishment. This is a hateful belief. This person has done nothing but be reasonable.

    Colleen – Your analogy is a good one: “you can choose to believe a murderer isn’t a bad guy if they felt they were murdering for a good cause, or you can hold to the belief that killing is wrong, period.”

    This issue of killing is, of course a gray area. But one’s beliefs about it are nevertheless based on what he/she believes is true. An observer may believe that a killer is always a bad person. But if shown evidence that the killer killed in self defense and later did many good works, the observer may change his/her mind. One’s beliefs should be shaped by the evidence. If the evidence later becomes stronger in the opposite direction, an honest person accepts the stronger evidence, always with the understanding that the evidence could someday swing back in the other direction. A belief should always be founded in reason. By definition, a belief not founded in reason is unreasonable.

    Colleen, please address this point: If belief is a choice, then, going back to my cat/horse analogy, you should be able to believe that a cat is a horse, simply by choosing that belief. I can’t do it. Can you?

    By the way, Colleen, I’m not as ignorant of the bible as you make me out to be. I have read much of the Bible, possibly all of it but I don’t know for sure. In my postings above, I have referred to Biblical passages many times.

34. good morning all! i’m up and at ’em early. i love coming in here to see your posts. i pray God will give me the right things to say, that will sink deep into the hearts of ANY skeptics who may read in here.

    geoffrey, to answer your question…. no. i would not choose to believe a cat is a horse, because evidence clearly reveals otherwise. same with the scriptures–they reveal the real evidence of God. you may have read heaps of scriptures, but for some reason you are hardened in your heart to believing them.

    i love the story of the apostle paul. he hated christians! i mean, he hated them. he had them killed. until one day, he was riding on his donkey, and a light came down and struck him to the ground. he was blinded and taken into the home of one he knew. God then called a man of great faith (ananias) to go to him. he went to the house paul was staying at, terrified for his life, and approached paul. he laid hands on him and prayed for him, and scales literally fell from his eyes. his sight was restored, but not only that, he became a man of great faith also until his death. of course, anyone would believe under those circumstances, and miracles like that aren’t heard of today, but my point is… God revealed Himself to a man so hardened, so opposite of what one would expect in a man that God would choose to use. (so there is hope for you yet! ;-)) paul was one of the greatest authors, attesting to the man of Jesus Christ. for me, personally, it was the teachings on paul that gave me the heart knowledge of who Jesus is. i had it in my head for years, but when i realized that Jesus came because He loves us, died for each of us because He loves us, and i learned thru scripture that there is nothing i can do that will take me away from the love of God, it sank deep into my heart. i was relieved and overjoyed about our God who loves us so much! i’m not good enough for heaven. no one is. i’m destined for hell, except that Jesus took on my punishment in my place, and by my believing that, i’m sealed in his “book of life.” God is not hateful because souls go to hell. that is looking at the glass half empty. God is gracious for saving souls from due judgement. that is looking at the glass being half full. have you read the book of john yet? (i don’t know if you saw the link i left above). i also love romans (written by paul). maybe try that.

    you know, there is irony in all of this. you want proof. yet, you yourself have demonstrated proof, based on what the bible says. look closely at these verses which are talking about non-believers:

    ***
    Job 21:14 Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.

    Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    Psalms 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

    Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

    Proverbs 2:13-14 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;

    Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

    Proverbs 14:9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour.

    Proverbs 16:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Prov 14:12)

    Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

    Isaiah 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

    Jeremiah 7:27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.

    Zechariah 7:12-13 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Therefore it is come to pass, that as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:

    Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

    Matthew 13:14-15 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Isa 6:9)

    Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

    Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

    John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    John 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

    Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    Romans 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    2 Corinthians 3:14-16 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    2 Peter 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    ***

    i realize not all of those verses may seem very nice. but the good news is, you have a choice to NOT being one of those fools! 😉

35. Let me also add that you are not condemned because of a lack of knowledge or understanding but because you have sinned knowingly against your conscience and against a Holy God. We all have. Therefore we all deserve His just punishment. But in His incredible grace and mercy, He provided a way that his lost lambs might be saved. Either way, God will be glorified, either by the conversion of humble sinners or by the punishment of those who truly deserve it. But I know, you think think the punishment is too harsh. But that is because you think too highly of yourself and lack understanding of how incredibly holy God is and how egregious sin is against Him. Punishments are not based only on the offense, but on who was offended. As I think I’ve said before, the punishment for killing a dog is less than killing the President.

36. Hi Geoffrey,
    I have been away. Two things happened to me this past week.

    For one thing, I lost someone very close to me. I suppose everyone has a special or best friend. I know that I did. In high school and as a freshman in college we spent most of our time together. She and I were as close as sisters and in some ways, closer. Three weeks ago, as far as we knew, she was healthy. This week she died. I have to tell you that even though we are much older and death is not that uncommon as a person ages, it still has a startling effect. If I did not know that one day we will be together again, I do not think I could bear the pain of losing loved ones.

    Another thing that happened was, I read a book I have not read before called “90 Minutes In Heaven”. I recommend it to you. While I already knew about the glories of heaven, it is reassuring to have a comtemporary describe being there. I wonder if this isn’t what happened to the apostle Paul when he talks about being in heaven for a time.

    Geoffrey, you said that you would not want to go to heaven to be with a God who would send an “honest man” to hell for not believing in Him. But the Bible says that God does not do this. The Bible says that He will confront each of us at some point with the truth. Consider this:

    Romans 1:21 KJV
    Because that, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened .

    It also states that:
    Psalms 19:1 KJV
    The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork .

    and

    Psalms 97:6 KJV
    The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

    I just ask you to take a step of faith and pray that God will reveal Himself to you in a way that Colleen, Ron, and I cannot do. When He does, trust Him.
    Jan

37. For Jan:

    “To My Best Friend” by Margaret Cook of Middlebury, IN

    I wish you weren’t so far away,
    I love you more than words can say.
    We met when we were in first grade.
    Hopscotch, jump rope and tag we played.
    At recess time we traded lunch,
    Walked home in winter’s snowy crunch.
    Each other’s secrets we did keep,
    The trust we had was true and deep.
    The boys we loved became young men,
    Down wedding aisles we followed them.
    Beside your grave I stand today
    And hope that you can hear me say
    If I could do it all again,
    I’d still choose you for my best friend.

38. Colleen – It would be helpful if you could summarize your thoughts, rather than referring me to a thousand different verses in the Bible.

    You did not quite answer my question. I asked you if you COULD believe that a cat was a horse, not if you WOULD. This is an important question, because you are claiming that belief is a choice, which I disagree with. If belief is in fact a choice, then you should be able to switch beliefs simply by choosing. So, I ask again, are you able to believe that a cat is a horse? Can you switch to that belief for a minute, a day, a week, and then switch back?

    Colleen & Ron – You did not deny that you have been taught that non-Christians are so vile that they deserve the worst possible punishment. So much for Christian love.

39. Geoffrey,
    Thank you for the poem. It means so much to me and I have to tell you that it brought tears. I appreciate your compassion and kindness.

    Understanding that your last comment was to Ron and Colleen, please forgive me for jumping in, and permit me to say that it isn’t just non-Christians who deserve separation from God, which is what hell actually is. The difference in a Christian and non-Christian isn’t that one is a far greater sinner than the other. Sometimes this is the case when a person totally rejects God and allows Satan to have free reign in his or her life, but often a non-christian leads a moral life. The problem is that non of us are truly good. We all have a sin nature. We have all gone astray. Without God, we have no hope of ever over coming this sin nature.

    Paul wrote in Romans chapter 3 verses 11 and 12 that there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. This includes all of mankind.

    Geoffrey, the beauty of Christ is that he clothes those who will receive Him in His own righteousness. While it is true that we are capable of doing a good deed or deeds while on this earth, we often do them for selfish or wrong reasons. We will inevitably commit sin, when we go our own way. I am not saying that all our deeds are sinful, but that our nature is sinful and we have need of restoration before God. Christ does this for us. He will cleanse us and present us to the Father as if we had never sinned because He became sin for us at Calvary. He stated, “…but for this cause came I unto this hour.” What was he referring to, the cross. He willingly left heavens glory to make a bridge for us to cross from death to life eternal and to destroy the works of Satan. (I John 3:8) Personally, I think that many people believe that because God can do all things, all things are easy. I am not so sure that is right. I believe that if there had been any other way, God would have provided it. When He loved us enough to become one of us and die for us, He paid the price and bought us with His blood. I want you to receive Him and His gift of life.

    Jesus also said, “I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly.” John 10:10

40. Nice poem GK. Very nice.

    You wrote: “You did not deny that you have been taught that non-Christians are so vile that they deserve the worst possible punishment. So much for Christian love.”

    I think you again are missing my point. It’s not the “non-Christian.” It’s any who have sinned. And we have all sinned thousands of times. Then there’s the unmeasurable holiness and purity of God… sit them side by side and you begin to see the reasonableness of Hell. Let me be perfectly clear, if I stand before God and he said, “Ron, I’m sending you to Hell.” I’d be fully accepting of that sentence, knowing it is what I deserve. And that’s not what I was taught. I grew up Methodist in the mid-west. We didn’t talk much about hell or even Jesus from what I can remember. I’d like to think I just didn’t pay much attention.

    But the beauty of Hell comes at the cross – where God in his grace allowed His Son to die in my place so that my debt might be paid. The more severe the punishment, the more deserved the punishment the greater the grace, the more praise for my Saviour.

    But those are just words to you. At least right now. But our prayer is that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and allow you to see the truth. The truth of your own state and the reality of God. There have been bigger skeptics than you Geoffrey who are now born-again. Seek the truth. It’s there.

41. jan,

    i’m very sorry to learn of your loss. but like you know, there is SO much comfort in KNOWING you will be reunited with your friend. peace of Christ to you!

    that is the beauty in being a believer–that you will see your loved ones again who share the beliefs in Jesus Christ, our saviour and deliverer. i would shoot myself in the head if i had to go thru this life with no hope of seeing those i love again, with no hope beyond the here and now. how dreadful to even think about.

    geoffrey, you have a compassionate heart–a quality born of the image of your maker. that poem was lovely. how sweet of you to share that.

    geoffrey, i want to back up. please answer the following:

    1) did you read the book of john yet?
    2) did you even try asking God to reveal Himself to you, with true faith in your heart that there just might be some truth to all of this?
    3) do you believe the bible holds any truth at all?

    i’ll respond more once i know.

42. Colleen,

    Let us please answer questions in turn. I asked you a question twice that you have not answered. I will happily answer your questions once you have answered mine, which I repeat again: Are you able to believe that a cat is a horse? Can you switch to that belief for a minute, a day, a week, and then switch back?

43. Ron – The fact remains that you have been taught, and you teach others, that non-Christians deserve extreme punishment. It doesn’t matter WHY you were taught that, or why you teach that.

44. Geoffrey, If we are presented with a choice of whom we will serve, would that make more sense to you than asking you to believe something that is difficult for you to believe?

    Here is what I mean: In Joshua 24:15 the people were asked to make this choice. It reads, “Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

    May I suggest that we all serve something or someone. We will dedicate ourselves to what we see as important.

    With this in mind, consider the opposing forces in this world. There is:
    light

45. I did not intend to hit post, please excuse! ;*{

    There is: light and darkness, good and evil, love and hate, life and death, truth and lies, to name a few. The God of the Bible is a described as light, salt, goodness, love, life, and truth.

    When you think of the choices God wants us to make, we know that the right way is to choose those characteristics that belong to God. Christ came into the world that we might be able to choose Him and in doing so, we are choosing life. We do, however, have to repent in order to be saved. Repentance means turning from our way and the way our sinful nature carries us and turning to God and His way. When I was a child, I thought repentance meant feeling sorry for our sins. This is involved, but it is more than just sorrow. It is a turning, a “choosing” if you will.

    The Bible says that to come to the Lord we must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. If you are willing to choose to serve the Lord, the truth will be made much clearer to you. God loves you enough to accept you even if you are having difficulty with your faith. If you choose to serve Him, He will clear up the rest for you and make trusting easy.

    I hope this helps and doesn’t confuse you. I know what I am trying to say, but I am not sure that I made it clear.

46. here’s a great illustration of the purpose of Jesus in our lives:

    http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee73e63418003b47d7d5

    back in a bit to address geoffrey’s question.

47. GK wrote: “Ron – The fact remains that you have been taught, and you teach others, that non-Christians deserve extreme punishment. It doesn’t matter WHY you were taught that, or why you teach that.”

    I teach as scripture teaches that ALL fall short of the Glory of God. All have sinned. All are deserving of Hell and God’s wrath. That includes me, Jan, Colleen, and you.

    It does matter why. If you don’t understand the reasonableness of Hell, you misunderstand not only God’s character but your own. So in answer to your question; yes, I have been taught (or learned) that from scripture. And I teach it to others. But I also teach God’s grace and mercy to those who are willing to repent of their sin. Regardless of who they are or what their sin. That is Christian love.

48. geoffrey,

    sorry, i thought i did answer the question, “Are you able to believe that a cat is a horse?” … the answer is NO, because the cat has revealed itself to be not a horse but a cat! we’re not programed robots, we’re intelligent designs, given brains to understand the difference between the two.

49. Jan – I agree with you on one point: We dedicate ourselves to what we see as important. If asked whom I would choose to serve, my answers would be many: my parents, my family, my friends, people doing good works, the environment, and endangered species spring to mind. The Bible’s god would not be on my list any more than the Hindu gods, the Norse gods, the tooth fairy, and countless other dieties invented by mankind.

    Invariably, Christians other religionists quote from their scriptures when arguing their case. Although the Bible has some philosophical value (for example, there are times when it is advisable to “turn the other cheek”) it is hardly an unbiased source when it comes to declaring the existence of its own god. Of course there are many passages in the Bible that claim its god is the best god, and that raise on a pedestal those that follow its god, and that criticise and threaten those who believe differently. In these characteristics, it is no different from dozens of other religions. The Bible is hardly an impartial source about the Bible. Thus, Biblical quotes alone are weightless unless they can be supported by independent, impartial sources.

    Jan, the logic you present is circular: “If you choose to serve Him, He will clear up the rest for you and make trusting easy.” In other words, one must first believe in him, and then he will make it easy to believe in him. How does that even make sense? It could just as easily apply to the Easter Bunny: Just believe in him, and then it will be easy to believe in him.

50. Colleen – Then it seems we agree that belief is not a choice, but is dependent upon the evidence at hand. Applying this to religion, the evidence at hand that I have is that there are no gods. This is what determines my belief. I cannot “just believe” that a god exists any easier than you can believe that a cat is a horse. To use your phrasing, the universe has revealed itself to me as god-free.

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