by Ray Comfort
Of all the questions you will ask yourself in life, probably the most important is, Am I good enough to go to Heaven? The way to find this out is to ask yourself if you have obeyed the Ten Commandments. Most would answer the question, “Well, I’ve broken one or two, but nothing too serious, like murder, etc.” So, let’s go through them and see how you do:
1. “You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Is God first in your life? Do you love God above all else? Many years ago, I purchased a T.V. for our children, but the first evening we had it, I arrived home from work and found that they didn’t even bother to greet me. They were too busy watching television. I turned it off and explained to them that if they ignored me because they preferred to watch T.V. they were setting their love on the gift rather then the giver, a wrong order of affections. In the same way, if we love anything – husband, wife, children or even our own lives – more than we love God, we are setting our affection on the gift rather than the Giver, which is a transgression of the First Commandment. In fact, the Bible says that we should so love God that our love for Mom and Dad and brother and sister should seem like hatred compared to the love we have for the God who gave those loved ones to us.
We are also commanded to love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. Jesus spoke of a Samaritan who found an injured stranger, bathed his wounds, carried him to an inn, gave money for his care and told the inn-keeper that he would pay for his expenses. We call him the good Samaritan, but in reality he wasn’t “good” at all, he merely obeyed the basic command to love his neighbor as himself. That is a picture of how God expects us to love our fellow human beings. We should love them as much as we love ourselves…whether they be friend or foe.
Have you loved God with all your heart? Have you loved humanity as much as you love yourself? You be the judge. Will you be innocent or guilty on Judgment Day of breaking that Commandment? I’m not judging you – I’m asking you to judge yourself before the Day of Judgment. The sentence for breaking this Commandment is death.
2. “You shall not make for yourself any graven image.”
This means that we shouldn’t make a god to suit ourselves, either with our hands or our mind. I was guilty of this. I made a god to suit myself. My god didn’t mind a “white” lie or a fib here and there – in fact, he didn’t exist. He was a figment of my imagination, an “image” which I shaped to suit myself. Is your God the One revealed in Holy Scripture? If not, then you have made your own god to suit yourself – you have committed the oldest sin in the Book. Scripture warns that no idolater will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”
Have you ever taken God’s name in vain – instead of using a four-letter word to express disgust, you’ve used His name? Hitler’s name wasn’t despised enough to use as a curse word. If you have used His holy name in that manner, you are a blasphemer and will not enter the Kingdom of God.
4. “Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy.”
I ignored this command for 22 years. Even though God gave me the gift of life, never once did I ask what He required of me. I was guilty of breaking this Commandment.
5. “Honor your father and your mother.”
Have you always honored your parents in a way that’s pleasing in the sight of God? Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. You may have forgotten them, but God hasn’t.
6. “You shall not murder.”
Jesus warned that if we get angry without cause we are in danger of judgment. If we hate our brother, God calls us a murderer. We can violate God’s Law by attitude and intent.
7. “You shall not commit adultery.”
Who of us can say that we are pure of heart? Jesus warned, “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.” Remember that God has seen every thought you have had and every sin you have ever committed. The day will come when you have to face His Law, and we are told that the impure, fornicators (those who have sex before marriage) and adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God. Punishment for transgression of this Commandment is the death penalty.
8. “You shall not steal.”
Have you ever taken something that belonged to someone else (irrespective of its value)? Then you are a thief – you cannot enter God’s Kingdom.
9. “You shall not bear false witness.”
Have you ever told a lie? Then you are a liar. How many lies do you have to tell to be a liar? Just one. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin. God does!
10. “You shall not covet.”
That means we shouldn’t desire anything that belongs to another person. The covetous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? All of us have sinned, and just as with civil law, you don’t have to break ten laws to be a lawbreaker, so the Bible warns, “For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, “That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!” It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man’s standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God’s standard – His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day.
This may sound strange, but the worst thing you could do at this point of time is to try and clean up your lifestyle – you realize that you have sinned, so from now on you will keep the Ten Commandments, do good deeds, say the right things and think only pure thoughts. But should a judge let a murderer go because he says he will now live a good life? No, he’s in debt to justice and therefore must be punished.
The Law of God is merely like a mirror – all a mirror does is show you the truth. If you see egg on your face, you don’t try and wash yourself with the mirror, it’s purpose should be to send you to water for cleansing. Neither should you try and wash yourself with the mirror of God’s Law…that’s not its purpose.
The sight in the mirror is not a pretty one, but if you don’t face it and acknowledge that you are unclean, then all that “dirt” will be presented on Judgment Day as evidence of your guilt, and then it will be too late to be cleansed.
Perhaps you think that God is good and will therefore overlook your sins. But if you were guilty of terrible crimes in a civil court and said to the judge, “Judge, I am guilty but I believe that you are a good man and will therefore overlook my crimes,” the judge would probably respond by saying, “You are right about one thing; I am a good man, and it’s because of my goodness that I am going to see that justice is done, that you are punished for your crimes.” The very thing that many are hoping will save them on Judgment Day, God’s “goodness,” will be the very thing that will condemn them. If God is good, He should punish murderers. liars, thieves, etc., and Hell will be their dreadful fate.
What a terrible place Hell must be. If you read in the newspaper that a man received a $5 fine for a crime, you could conclude that his crime was insignificant. But if a man received multiple life sentences, you could conclude that his crime was heinous. In the same way, we can catch a glimpse of how terrible sin must be in the sight of God by looking to the punishment given for it – eternal punishment. Ungrateful humanity never bothers to thank God for His wonderful blessings of color, light, food, joy, beauty, love, and laughter, so He will take those blessings away from them. Instead of proving their gratitude by obedience to His will, they use His name to curse. Their punishment will be just but severe to the uttermost. Take the time to read what Jesus said Hell was like in Mark 9:43-48. I am afraid for you…please, look honestly into the mirror of the Law, then seek the “water” that cleanses every sin. If you don’t believe what I am saying about the reality of Hell, it means you think God is corrupt (that He hasn’t the moral backbone to seek justice), that Jesus was a liar, that the Apostles were false witnesses, that God’s promises are nothing but prefabricated lies, and there is no greater insult to God than to call Him a liar. By doing so, you are adding to your transgressions. Imagine if you reject the Savior, die in your sins and find that what I have told is the Gospel truth? Then it will be too late, you will be judged for you sins. If that happens, and your eyes meet my eyes on the Day of Judgment, I’m free from your blood. I have told you the truth, but if you choose to ignore it your blood will be upon your own head…you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Can you see your predicament? You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, you have sinned “with knowledge.” Isn’t it true that every time you lied, stole, lusted, etc., you did it with knowledge that it was wrong?
Does the fact that you have sinned against God scare you? It should. You have actually angered Him by your sin. The Bible says His wrath abides on you, that you are an “enemy of God in your mind through wicked works.” But let fear work for your good in the same way that a fear of jumping out of a plane at a great height would make you put on a parachute. Let your will to live open your heart to the Gospel of salvation.
I am not the only one who doesn’t want you to end up in Hell. The person who gave you this tract cared enough to give it to you and risk your rejection, and God Himself is not willing that you perish. To make clear what an incredible thing He has done for you in the Gospel, let’s look again to civil law: You are standing in front of a judge, guilty of very serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you haven’t two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence…he lifts his gavel, when someone you don’t even know steps in and pays the fine for you. The moment you accept that payment, you are free to go. Justice has been served, the law has been satisfied, and what’s more, the stranger who paid your fine showed how much he cares for you. His payment was evidence of his love.
That’s what God did for you, in the person of Jesus Christ. you are guilty, He paid the fine 2,000 years ago. It is that simple. The Bible puts it this way: “he was bruised for our iniquities . . . Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us…God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
It was no small thing for Jesus to die for us. The only thing that would satisfy the demands of Eternal Law was the suffering death of the sinless Son of God. What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn’t have to be punished for your sins. His sacrificial death and resurrection mean that you need no longer be in debt to the Law, and God can now grant you everlasting life if you obey Him — death no longer has a legal hold upon those who belong to Jesus Christ.
Two men were offered a parachute while seated in a plane. The first man was told it would improve his flight, but the second man was informed he had to make a 25,000 foot jump. when the flight struck severe turbulence the first man took his parachute off because as far as he was concerned it didn’t improve the flight. but during the same violent turbulence, the second man clung tighter to his parachute. Each man’s motive for putting the parachute on determined whether or not they would keep it on. In the same way, the reason you should “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” shouldn’t be to find peace, joy, true happiness, to have your marriage healed or your problems fixed, etc. (to have your flight improved), but it should be to escape the jump to come – because of the fact that you have to pass through the door of death. Then, when the flight gets bumpy (when problems come) you won’t fall away from the faith.
What should you then do? Simply repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. Don’t put it off until tomorrow.
Would you sell an eye for a million dollars? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless to you, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Your life (your soul) is of such value, Jesus said that you should despise the value of your eye compared to it. He said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is better to enter Heaven blind than to go to Hell seeing. In other words, of all the things you should prioritize in your life, it’s not your health, your vocation, etc., it’s your eternal salvation.
Think of a man who has committed adultery. His faithful wife is more than willing to take him back, so what is the attitude in which he should approach her? It should be one of tremendous humility, asking for forgiveness, and determining in his heart never to even think of committing adultery again.
That’s how you should approach God. If you are not sure how to pray, read Psalm 51 and make it your prayer. Then put your faith in Jesus Christ in the same way you would put your faith in a parachute. You don’t just “believe” it will benefit you, you actually trust yourself to it by putting it on. Then, once you have made peace with God, read the Bible daily and obey what you read.
By the way, someone cared enough about you to give you this tract. Show God you love others by doing the same for them. Write to Livingwaters.com for a free list of unique tracts, books, tapes, and videos to help you in this respect.
geoffrey,
there’s still a couple of things you haven’t addressed, that i have posted. you always ask for proof, and i showed you heaps of scripture that revealed truth from what it states about the non-believer, being blind to the truth. you are proof positive of what scripture states. do you find proof in that?
i also don’t know your thoughts on the bible–be it a partly true book, a fictional book?
perhaps you see Christians as clinging to their beliefs, simply based on this silly book that carries these outrageous stories that sound good, and we therefore choose to believe in them. but geoffrey, it’s so much more… have you ever experienced a concert of pure worship, and felt the presence of the holy spirit fill the room, leaving your spirit longing in hunger to praise Him? have you ever had a song lyric or sentence in a book touch so deep into your heart, that your eyes well up with tears of love for your Creator? have you ever looked at a magnificent tree, and felt your soul sing praises to the One who created that tree, that your eyes may revel in its delight? or listened to a bird sing, or see the mountains peer over the valleys and just thank God for His glorious creation? do you ever know the longing for your Savior to come on back and take you to that place of promise, where there will be no more tears and pain? have you ever felt so loved, that you knew there was nothing you could do to ever ever separate you from that particular love?
because when your eyes and heart are opened, that is what being a Christian will do for you, that is what it is. it fills you with hope, love, goodness and light. these are the things you are missing out on by keeping God at a distance. if you would only open your eyes, if you would only open your heart, if you would only resist the lies being fed into your spirit… or as Rich Mullins once said, if only you would just look up.
Ron – Therefore, your belief system tells you that, just because someone has not been convinced of Christianity, it is right and just that they be tortured for all eternity. What better definition of hate? Who would I want tortured for even a minute, other than someone I hated?
In your belief system, your god desires eternal torture for these people, and so you desire it too. Listen to what you must tell yourself: “I desire torture for non-believers.” You don’t even have to add “for all eternity” to feel the hatred in that statement. Cloaking Christianity in the warm and fuzzy word “love” cannot obscure the hate-talk against non-believers.
Colleen – (huff, puff) I’m getting there!
No Geoffrey, it’s not because they believe or do not believe that they are punished, but because they have sinned. If you life a sin-free life you can get into heaven. But if you have blown it, like the rest of us, then you need God’s grace and mercy. I don’t know how to say it any clearer. Grace and mercy upon those who don’t deserve it is love.
Other points from your posts: Without absolute knowledge of every section of the universe, you can’t know for sure there is no God. You have looked at a small amount of evidence and concluded there is no God.
Re: circular reasoning. Your point would be valid, if the Bible were written by one man in one sitting. But it’s not. It’s 66 books written over hundreds of years with archaeological, prophetic and statistical evidence as external evidence to it’s authority.
Re: Christianity being like all other religions. Christianity stands alone as a religion that requires nothing to gain eternal life. All other religions I know of require you be a good person. Which brings us full circle to this original post. “Are you good enough to go to Heaven?”
Ron – Pardon me if I misunderstood, but I thought your religion taught that no one is without sin. If so, then only “God’s grace and mercy” will allow us to escape his chamber of eternal torture. And is there any way to obtain “God’s grace and mercy” without believing in Jesus as our Lord and savior? If not, then any non-believer is banished to eternal torture, a fate that Christians fervently desire for non-believers. Do I have it right?
“Without absolute knowledge of every section of the universe, you can’t know for sure there is no God. You have looked at a small amount of evidence and concluded there is no God.”
True. This is what I meant by “the universe has revealed itself to me as god-free.” Just as Colleen is convinced by the available evidence that the cat is not a horse, I am convinced by the available evidence that the universe is god-free.
Circular logic: What difference does it make how many people wrote the Bible? How is it NOT circular to say, “believe first, and then it will be easy to believe”???
“Christianity stands alone as a religion that requires nothing to gain eternal life.”
Doesn’t Christianity require belief in Jesus as our Lord and savior in order to gain eternal life?
“All other religions [except Christianity] I know of require you be a good person.” No doubt this will be a relief to many Christians who wish for non-believers to suffer eternally.
It is a true statement. No one is good. But we don’t desire that you go there. Why do you think we are taking the time to even have this discussion?
I said using the Bible to prove the Bible is not circular logic. I do agree with you that asking you to make a blind leap of faith may not be the best approach for you. It wouldn’t for me. But I think what she’s asking you to do, is open yourself to the possibility that Bible may be true. Humble yourself. Frankly, we are heading into some deep theological waters, and if I can’t get you to see even your need for a savior, then it’s not going to help to debate or discuss where faith comes from or if repentance is something you do, or a reaction because of your faith.
i will say geoffrey, you are a breath of fresh air to have this ‘debate’ with. it saddens me so, when others extend their hatred towards me for being a Christian, because i try to share who Jesus is to them. so thank you for your kindness, above all else.
i look forward to your addressing my other questions.
Geoffrey,
Ron just posted something similar to the post I am working on. I was writing the following when he made his post:
Two things you say I want to disagree with. (If I were smart enough to use tags, I would insert your quote, but since I am not, I will do it this way.)
You said, “any non-believer is banished to eternal torture, a fate that Christians fervently desire for non-believers. Do I have it right?”
No, you do not have that right. Colleen, Ron, and I just being here on this site are evidence that this is not what we want. Why else would we desire you to believe in Christ, if we did not want you to avoid eternal separation from God? Every missionary and Christian martyr who has given their life to spread the gospel has done so that others might live. Christ died on a cruel cross so that others might live. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)
Something that I would like to readdress is the “If you choose to serve Him, He will clear up the rest for you and make trusting easy.” I realize that I did not make my thoughts clear on that at all. Will you allow me to try again?
The Bible says that we can only come to Christ if the Father draws us.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Geoffrey, I believe the Father is drawing you. That is a wonderful thing. When the Father draws us, we need to be willing to take that step of faith. The first step is the hardest, but it is also the most rewarding thing you will ever do. When I was saved, I knew very little about the plan of salvation. I was reading the book of John, chapter 3. There is a lot of infomation in that chapter. Some I did understand, but then I read Jesus words, “Ye must be born again.” I did not know what that meant or how it could happen, but I knew the Lord was dealing with me and I knew that I had not been born again. I knew. This is where a choice comes in. I could have chosen to say I don’t understand that, it makes no sense, so forget it, or I could have chosen to do what I did. That day, alone, at home, no preacher or teacher, I said, “Lord, I do not understand this, but I believe You.” I trusted the Lord Jesus that day and He has never let me go since that moment. That is why I am saying to you that you will have more understanding and therefore greater faith after you have made the first step. Christ brought people into my life who taught me. Perhaps the greatest change was the opening of the scripture to me. I began to understand what I read in the Bible. Later, I did make a public profession and was ‘rebaptized’. This is also why I said to you the first time I sort of stuck my nose into the conservations you were having with Ron and Colleen that I cannot argue with you and convince you to become a Christian. I can, however, tell you that when the Father draws you and reveals Himself to you, a simple act of faith will be a first step on a lifelong journey that you will never regret.
The other thing that I disagree with you about is your remark that Christians think the God of the Bible is the best god. Christians do not think this, because there is only one God. All the others are imposters. You will either come to know the One true God or you will never know God. You will argue that every religion says the same, but that isn’t actually true. Many religions are polytheistic and none offer a personal relationship with the Father. All are manmade and are examples of man reaching and searching for a god. Christianity is the only faith whereby God reaches out to mankind. I am thankful that one day, He reached down His hand for me and I am praying that He will reach down for you as well.
Ron – Yes, perhaps you would like me to become a Christian. But, for all those who never convert by the time they die, most likely including me, you wish them to be tortured.
Re: “using the Bible to prove the Bible is not circular logic.” Huh? Using the Bible to prove the Bible is EXACTLY circular logic!!
Re: “open yourself to the possibility that Bible may be true.” I do believe that parts of the Bible are true. There are people, cities, and historical events that are backed by scientific evidence. But there are internal inconsistencies that prevent me from believing that the Bible is infallible. For example, in Genesis 6:19, God tells Noah, “You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.” Yet, in Genesis 7:2 and 7:3, God tells Noah, “Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.” Can both versions be the true word of God? Or is it more likely that they are simply the words of fallible humans?
Another example: I cannot imagine a loving god ordering Joshua to kill the children of Jericho, and to take the possessions of the inhabitants. I find it far more plausible that Joshua, having wandered the desert, needed a place to park, so he invented his godly orders to make sure his people would follow him and commit the massacre he wanted.
There are many other examples of self-contradiction in the Bible. Without resolving these, I cannot believe it is the word of an infallible god. But I am open to resolving these. If anyone can explain them, I will certainly listen.
Geoffrey, That is certainly a difficult passage to understand. Here is what I have been taught and what I believe.
The people of Jericho had paganistic rituals that were brutal and licentious. This is learned from what is called Ras Shamra tablets and relics of fertility practices unearthed at Beth-sham and Megiddo. The immoral character of the Canaanite deities led their devotees into the most demoralizing rites of that time period. The practices were apparently so evil that God forbade the rebuilding of the city. For this reason, God brought judgement on the people of Jericho.
Did he do this without warning? NO! For seven days Joshua and his army marched around the city. The residents could have repented as Rahab did, however, they chose to remain within the city and defy the army of God. I understand that your problem is with the death of the children. The only way I have heard this explained and what I believe is that God knew in His infinite wisdom that the children would have grown up to corrupt themselves and the Israelites due to their early teachings. The practices were so vile that God’s judgement required extinction of that society. Sin is deadly. More would have died by allowing them to live because of the sin that would have lived with them.
If you believe and understand that God creates and sustains life and is ultimately in charge of how long any of us live, you might begin to view this as all death is viewed. We all live out our lives by the grace of God. He has the power and authority to give life and to take life. This period of history was a demonstration of God’s faithfulness to his covenant people and of a Holy God in putting away evil. The entire old testament of the Bible is God teaching mankind how he deals with his own and how he judges sin. His mercy can be seen in the period of time that was given before Joshua invaded the city and in the fact that Rahab and her family were spared. Rahab was not an exception for any reason other than she chose to repent and believe God. The Bible clearly teaches us that the wages of sin is death. God wants us to choose life. Jesus said, “I came that ye might have life…”
Hope this helps.
Jan
Colleen,
Thank you for your kind words. I am glad that everyone here has been able to tolerate the questioning of their beliefs, mine included, because it is really allowing for an interesting conversation.
To answer your questions:
1) “did you read the book of john yet”? Yes.
2) “did you even try asking God to reveal Himself to you, with true faith in your heart that there just might be some truth to all of this?”
How about this: I will ask him now. I have stated above that I do allow for the possibility that I am wrong and that the god of the Bible actually exists. Therefore, I think that satisfies your “true faith in your heart that there just might be some truth to all of this” prerequisite, correct? Now, you’ll have to take my word for this next part: I’m going to say out loud the words you suggest: “God, please reveal yourself to me.” It should be enough to just think these words, or just write them, but I’ll actually say them. Then I’ll let you know the results. I’ll say them now:….OK, I just said them. And truly, I would love to speak to any non-human. You’ve seen the thrill scientists get when speaking sign language with a gorilla. It’s fascinating to communicate with another species. Imagine speaking with a god! Who wouldn’t want to do that? Believe me, I am wide open to that prospect! By now you must know me well enough to believe that I have many questions I would like to ask him!!!
Alas, nothing has happened yet. How long should I wait to hear from this guy? Well, while we wait, I’ll address your other questions.
3) “do you believe the bible holds any truth at all?” Yes, as you probably know, after you posed this question I explained to Ron that I do believe those parts of the Bible that have been proven by independent studies.
4) “i showed you heaps of scripture that revealed truth from what it states about the non-believer, being blind to the truth. you are proof positive of what scripture states. do you find proof in that?” I must confess, I haven’t had time to read all the biblical references you sent, and which you accurately describe as “heaps.” But every religion claims that the non-believer is blind, so if that were a reason to believe the Bible, it iwould also be a reason to believe the others. Thus, I do not consider that statement to be proof.
5) “have you ever experienced a concert of pure worship, and felt the presence of the holy spirit fill the room, leaving your spirit longing in hunger to praise Him?” No, though I have heard religious music, even some that I liked. But that’s music. Music has effects on our emotion that we can’t control. Can you imagine “Jaws” without the scary music? The music adds so much “ummph.”
6) “have you ever had a song lyric or sentence in a book touch so deep into your heart, that your eyes well up with tears of love for your Creator?” Since I believe my creators are my parents, I must answer yes. I have shed many tears of love for them. They have struggled all their lives and have overcome immense barriers, and they have raised a loving son through it all.
7) “have you ever looked at a magnificent tree, and felt your soul sing praises to the One who created that tree, that your eyes may revel in its delight? or listened to a bird sing, or see the mountains peer over the valleys and just thank God for His glorious creation?” Since I do not believe that any gods exist, I haven’t thanked any of them. But I have marveled at the mechanisms that creatures have developed to adapt to their environments. And when I’ve studied life at the molecular level, I’ve been all the more fascinated. I agree with you – it is delightful.
8 ) “do you ever know the longing for your Savior to come on back and take you to that place of promise, where there will be no more tears and pain?” Again, no, because I do not believe that such a place, or such a Savior, exists. It would be great if it did, but I cannot find the evidence for it, so I have no choice but to believe what I “see”: we have one life, and we’d better make the most of it and enjoy its beauty, because someday we will die and cease to be. There is no shame or outrage in that fate; it is simply the price all living creatures must pay for life. (Note: I use the term “see” to cover all the senses, as well as the sense of reason.)
9) “have you ever felt so loved, that you knew there was nothing you could do to ever ever separate you from that particular love?” No. I have seen people swept away from their loved ones by events they could not control, and I see myself as subject to those same forces. Again, I feel I must make the most of my time with my loved ones, because someday I will have no more time with them.
PS: There’s that accursed 8) again! It’s supposed to be an 8 ) ( I just put a space in there).
Ron's note: I fixed it in your post by adding the space.hey geoffrey, will you watch that video in #96? and i’ll get my thoughts together and answer you a tad later……
the smiley face–i just understood what you were saying. that’s funny!
PS- yesterday i sent that link (the video in the above post), and i sent it to the masses–everyone i know, and my dear “agnostic” friend asked me to never send her links again. honestly, it stabbed me deep, i was hurt, because i felt she was rejecting me, until i remembered Jesus said we are to count it worthy to suffer persecution for Him. it wasn’t about ME, it was about God, my friend was rejecting Him.
so geoffrey, that is why i said that about you being a breath of fresh air… i was hurt yesterday and felt discouraged–ready to throw in the towel of “witnessing” but that still small voice told me to press on. you have never extended anything but willingness to learn. this is a challenge for me, one i love and one i’m gaining my own knowledge in, just in being a part of this entire discussion.
i’m not going to give up on you or anyone who is ever willing to hear the gospel.
i agree with jan, she said alot of things so well, but i love how she recognized how God is drawing you to Him. and to let you know, you have prayer warriors praying for you. our “small group” at my church lifts you up in prayer each sunday now.
i really wanted to share all of this. today is a new day, and i am pumped to be here, available to be a witness. and i’ll roll with any punches that come my way. 🙂
blessings to you all today! ~colleen
i’m at it here again. i trust we’re all friends and no one will find their tail feathers being stepped upon if we answer/share input with each others posts.
from #105: there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior, but God does and will extend his grace and mercy to unbelievers. it is in His doing so that draws folks to Him. never forget, He is a God who loves each of us and desires we ALL inherit heaven.
Christians DO NOT desire hell/torture upon anyone. that would go against their very own new nature in Christ, who has transformed their heart into magnitudes of love. you must quit stating that in here, because we all keep telling you that isn’t so. either you have been ill-informed, you’ve encountered a nasty so-called Christian who in a twisted way believed this, or you are pre-judging w/o merit based simply on your own opinion.
#111: you asked God to reveal Himself to you, so brace yourself geoffrey, because He will! and you are right… imagine speaking, not only to A god, but the one true almighty God! it’s so wonderful, you can approach Him at any time and He is faithful to you. you say you have questions for Him, but you would be surprised at how many of your questions have been addressed in the scriptures. how long should you wait to hear from Him you ask? i believe He is speaking to you each time you come in here.
thank you for all of your honest answers. i’ve got a couple of more things i’m going to come back and address.
Jan – Then if your god were to tell you to kill babies, you would view killing them as a good deed?
Colleen,
1) “there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior”
Then I am confused. Ron said, “Christianity stands alone as a religion that requires nothing to gain eternal life.”
2) “Christians DO NOT desire hell/torture upon anyone.”
But if your god wishes to punish non-believers by sending them to hell, is it not your wish that his will be done?
3) “how long should you wait to hear from Him you ask? i believe He is speaking to you each time you come in here.”
No, I haven’t heard from him yet.
4) Re: the video link you sent: It’s well-done, and even has meaning to me. In my eyes, the god-figure is actually my parents. Fortunately I never abandoned them for the drugs and materialism portrayed in the video.
Geoffrey,
I guess you set me up for that, but I did see it coming. However, you asked for an explanation and I gave it to you.
The Israelites were living under a different covenant. God was dealing with His people in a different way for His own purposes, but always for His glory and our good. We may not understand fully. The Bible says that now we see as through a glass darkly, but someday we will see face to face.
I am not a leader of a nation or an army. Even if I were, God will not tell me to kill children (not even unborn ones). Jesus came with a new message and a new covenant. As Ron said, we are in deep theological waters and I do not expect to be able to explain everything to your satisfaction. You did say that if someone could give an explanation, you would listen.
Jan
Jan – You can call it a “set-up” if you want, but I am simply following the logical thread, and it’s no secret that I find Joshua’s baby-killing disgusting. You explained everything in the third person, and in fact I did listen. And I couldn’t help but wonder what your thoughts would be if it were you who was ordered to do the killing. I do appreciate your attempt to explain the massacre at Jericho. You’ve probably done it as well as it could be done. But it’s not an easy thing to do, because it requires the justification of baby-killing. “Old covenant” or “new covenant,” it’s the same god, and Christians and Jews don’t seem able to criticise him, no matter how badly he behaves. But he can’t whistle past the graveyard, call himself “pure good,” and pretend he never ordered those babies killed. This is only one of the Bible’s self-contradictions that have prevented me from believing it.
By the way, there were other cases of baby-killing committed before Jericho, under Moses. In Heshbon, the king refused to let Moses and his people pass, so he, his army, and his people (“men, women, and children”) were destroyed. Had those babies too absorbed terrible sins that justified their killing?
In my humble opinion, your god should have done his own killing instead of telling the humans to do it. Why not? That way he would not have set a precedent for people killing in his name. But now, with that precedent set, any whacko can kill and claim that God told him to, and nobody can really prove him wrong. Had your god made it clear that NOBODY should kill in his name, then it could be argued that said whacko is not following the Bible.
The other thing that I find troubling here is that many people ignore the unpleasantries in the Bible. Many Christians want the so-called “Ten Commandments” posted everywhere. Well, that was the “old covenant,” too. So does any part of the “old covenant” apply today? If so, then how can it be claimed that the baby-killing parts no longer apply?
“God will not tell me to kill children” – How do you know? He is said to work in strange ways. Do you know completely his thinking on this issue? It seems to me that you could not, and that you must allow for the possibility that he could ask you to do this.
if joshua killed babies in accordance to God’s instruction, then doesn’t that help shed light on the point that God is good… since their deaths came before they reached the age of accountability, their souls would go to heaven, rather than letting them grow up big and bad, where they would have spent eternity in hell? is that a possibility here? and if so, then which is the worse of the two?
Commandments and covenants are different. The commandments are a part of the law and Jesus said, Matthew 5:17 ” Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ” I am commanded not to kill, so I know that I will not be commanded to kill by God.
My thinking on this is that war is something God has allowed and due to the sin nature of man it is many times necessary. Innocent people always die in war and when nations go against nation, there will be private citizens and children who die. Please do not think that I am trying to change your mind and convince you. I really do not think that I can do that. We could argue forever on points of the Bible and just become more and more determined to prove the other wrong. I am not interested in doing this.
Perhaps the Lord will help you to reconcile the difficult passages that seem to offend you.
This might help. God could just as easily have left out every passage that would offend a person, but He chose not to do this. Matthew 11:6 reads, “And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
geoffrey, you are very misunderstood on who God is, because for now, you do not know Him on a personal level. see the above (heaps of) verses stating what and how the unbeliever thinks/believes/understands or doesn’t understand, and you may realize the scriptures are on to something. you want proof-positive, but won’t proof-negative work just the same?
God would not ask anyone to murder children. i don’t believe He would today. remember in itunes where those sermons were? (search under tommy nelson, then go to denton bible church…) well he does a sermon called “Dispensationalism” which explains a lot of good points as to what you are getting at, but you will have to listen for yourself if you want more clarity.
seriously, if you are really bothered by the baby killing thing, i encourage you to read more into the bible. it has to be taken as a whole, then it all makes perfect sense! it’s a glorious plan. you just need to get to know it and come to understand it. (easier said than done, eh?) make sure you aren’t just choosing a story w/o full understanding of the larger realm. and it truly sounds to me like something inside of you DOES believe in God, but you seem to have problems with some things you’ve learned/experienced in coming to know Him, so you say you don’ t believe at all, like to spite Him or something. cos if you didn’t believe at all, you wouldn’t be bothered by the story of joshua.
here is what is written in the book, “Answers to tough questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith.” by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart
“… Jesus himself declared that the Old Testament may be summed up by the commandments to love God and love your neighbor. (Matthew 22:37). He also observed that God in the O.T. had continually desired love and mercy rather than sacrifice. (Matthew 9:13; 12:7). This attitude can be seen with statements such as, “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked…and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (Ezekiel 18:23). God would not have destroyed certain nations except that He is a God of justice and their evil could not go unchecked and condoned.”
unfortunately, babies are part of those nations, but again, see my above post (#120).
it also says in that book, “We find judgement as well as love scattered very pervasively throughout the N.T., and love and mercy as well as judgement throughout the O.T. God is consistent and unchanging, but different situations call for different emphases. Therefore, when the two Testaments are read the way they were intended, they reveal the same holy God who is rich in mercy, but who will not let sin go unpunished.”
(again, reference the sermon “Dispensationalism” if you need more clarity–Tommy explains it wonderfully.)
oh but wait–i can’t quote the bible to prove a point, can i? or maybe i can… back in a sec with another one for you…
RE: Circular Logic
more from “Answers to tough questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith.” by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart
“Are Christians guilty of circular reasoning?
A charge that is frequently leveled against the Bible is that Christians argue in circles. The charge goes that Christians claim the Bible is the inspired Word of God and, as a proof of this contention, they quote a passage from the Bible that says so. This type of argumentation is known as begging the question, or circular reasoning. Nothing is proved in this type of argumentation. It is based on assuming something to be true, using that assumption as fact to prove another assumption and using the “proved” assumption to prove your original assumption! Some Christians (and many non-Christians) do argue in circles, but about the Bible they certainly don’t need to. Instead of assuming the Bible is the Word of God, we can begin by demonstrating that the Scriptures are basically reliable and trustworthy historical documents. This is confirmed by applying the ordinary test of historical criticism to the Scriptures. Once it is established that the Bible is a valid historical record, the next point is realizing that Jesus Christ claims to be the unique Son of God and that He bases this claim on His forthcoming resurrection from the dead. Next, we examine the evidence for the resurrection contained in this historic document and find that arguments overwhelmingly support the contention that Christ has risen from the dead. If this is true, then He is the unique Son of God as He claimed to be. If He is indeed God, then He speaks with authority on all matters. Since Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the Word of God (Matthew 15:1-4; 5:17, 18) and promised His disciples, who either wrote or had control over the writing of the New Testament books, that the Holy Spirit would bring all things back to their remembrance (John 14:26), we can insist, with sound and accurate logic, that the Bible is God’s Word. This is not circular reasoning. It is establishing certain facts and basing conclusions on the sound logical outcome of these facts. The case for Christianity can be established by ordinary means of historical investigation.”
Speaking of circles, Geoffrey, we’re back to having this sense of right and wrong. Your conscience tells you it’s wrong to kill children. Just as your conscience confirms you have sinned or broken God’s laws. You get around this by “carving” your own false God (if only in your mind). One who should do this or that according to your mind. It’s called idolatry. You continue to say “your God’, but the god you refer to is nowhere near the God we serve.
If we could yank you into the kingdom and show you the truth, Geoffrey, we sure would. But we can not. Nothing is required. Repentance and faith will be evidence of your conversion. But God does give you the free will to reject him. We could run down rabbit trails for years but again, it will always come back to this very point. You have sinned against God. According to His word, and according to your conscience. If you don’t see that, then the rest is really going to be foolishness to you, no matter what we say.
We will continue to pray for you.
After posting, i see this looks as though I am angry or upset, I am not. If anything it’s just sad to me. But I do trust that God will open your eyes in due time. I pray something we said here has been helpful to you and that our words and actions have brought Glory to God.
Jan: (re: post #122) I did not mean to say that the “Ten Commandments” WERE the old covenant; I meant to say that they were given under the old covenant. Sorry for my error.
“I am commanded not to kill, so I know that I will not be commanded to kill by God.” Prior to his killing spree, Moses too had been commanded not to kill, having personally received the so-called “Ten Commandments” (which are not really the Ten Commandments; see post #1). He’s done it before. How can you know what your god may have in store for you? Do you completely know his mind on this issue, or any other? Does he not “work in mysterious ways” that we can’t predict?
Don’t worry about me thinking that you are trying to change my mind. I am not afraid of anyone trying to change my mind. My mind will follow the evidence. The strongest evidence wins. And the strongest evidence is that which survives rigorously questioning.
“God could just as easily have left out every passage that would offend a person, but He chose not to do this.” Since I do not believe in gods, I see nothing divine about the Bible. I believe that the offensive parts were left in because they were more acceptable at the time they were written. The god of the Old Testament is described as more of a typical king of that era: jealous, strict, demanding, wrathful, sometimes caring, etc. This is how people viewed a good leader back then. As man’s sensibilities evolved, so to did his image of what constitutes a good leader. By the time of the New Testament, the god seems to have been through a 12-step program. To me it indicates the mind of man at work, not divine inspiration, and certainly not an ever-constant god.
Colleen: (re: post #121) “if joshua killed babies in accordance to God’s instruction, then doesn’t that help shed light on the point that God is good….” You assume that the babies would be hopelessly ruined when they grew up, but babies can readily adapt to a new family environment. And besides, couldn’t your god simply fix any defects, instead of subjecting the babies to painful deaths? Furthermore, the Bible never claims that killing them was an act of mercy. The killings are simply described as necessary in order for Joshua to take over.
(re: post #123) “you want proof-positive, but won’t proof-negative work just the same?” I’m not sure what you mean by this. Can you summarize for me?
“God would not ask anyone to murder children.” As I asked Jan above, how do you know? He’s done it before. Do you completely know his mind on this issue, or any other? Does he not “work in mysterious ways” that we can’t predict?
“if you didn’t believe at all, you wouldn’t be bothered by the story of joshua.” No, truly, I have no evidence for the existence of any gods, and my belief is proportional to the evidence. I honestly do not believe in your god any more than you believe in other gods. What bothers me about the story of Joshua is that he is portrayed as a good person. He commits attrocities, but because his god put him up to it, it’s supposed to be OK. Unfortunately, this is the same lack of reasoning used by Muslim extremists when they kill.
“(quoting Josh McDowell) Jesus himself declared that the Old Testament may be summed up by the commandments to love God and love your neighbor.” I didn’t find the O.T. god to be so great, as I’ve indicated in my comments above to Jan and in my statements about his encouragement of baby-killing. To the contrary, he ordered Joshua not to love his neighbor, but to kill his neighbor and all the neighbor’s children.
(re: post 124, circular reasoning) “(quoting Josh McDowell) we can begin by demonstrating that the Scriptures are basically reliable and trustworthy historical documents. This is confirmed by applying the ordinary test of historical criticism to the Scriptures. Once it is established that the Bible is a valid historical record,….” Josh McDowell is incorrect. There are many parts of the Bible that are inconsistent with each other, thereby demonstrating a reliability of less than 100%. But even if you ignore those, there are many parts of the Bible that have not been proven, and just because part of a document is “basically true,” that certainly does not mean that the entire document is 100% true. One could take a history book and rewrite it such that the Nazis won World War II. By Josh’s logic, this would be truthful, just because the rest of the book is true.
Ron: “Nothing is required.” The guidelines on this that I’m getting from you and Colleen seem inconsistent with each other. She says “there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior.” Is this not a requirement?
“God does give you the free will to reject him.” As Colleen and I demonstrated above (#72 and 98), belief is not a matter of free will. Neither of us can force ourselves to believe what the evidence at hand disputes. And unless you can choose to believe that a cat is a horse, then you are in the same camp.
“Your conscience tells you it’s wrong to kill children. Just as your conscience confirms you have sinned or broken God’s laws.” I assume you are using the word “sin” in its religious sense, which to me is meaningless. Therefore my conscience does not confirm that I have sinned or broken your god’s laws, any more than your conscience tells you that you have broken Thor’s laws. But have I ever done wrong? Yes.
“You get around this by “carving” your own false God (if only in your mind).” You’re reaching a long way around to try to bring idolatry into it. What I have tried to do is describe the inconsistencies I see in the Bible that prevent me from believing that it is the infallable word of your god. Somehow you see my questioning as sinful. Call it whatever unsavory name you like, but name-calling does not constitute a rational reply.
“If you don’t see that, then the rest is really going to be foolishness to you, no matter what we say.” I do not view rationality as foolishness. I respect anyone who offers their honest opinion and is open to discussion. Even many of the opinions given above, with which I have disagreed, I have not mocked as foolish. I have great admiration for those who are participating. An open and honest discussion is NEVER foolish!
“But I do trust that God will open your eyes in due time.” He knows where to find me.
“I pray … that our words and actions have brought Glory to God.” I can’t imagine why an all-powerful being would so desperately need to be glorified. He seems insecure. Isn’t he happy just being perfect?
To all: Would anyone like to address the “Noah’s ark” discrepancy I mentioned above (#109)?
dear geoffrey,
you’re wrong and we’re all right.
thank you and have a good night!
i’m JUSSST kidding.
but i’d like to come back in a bit and address a few more points. 🙂
Whew! I thought you had me there, with your meticulous reasoning!
no, you just stumped me for but a fleeting nano-second, and that’s all i could think of to write! hee hee…
back later on!
okay, how ’bout this…
darn it geoffrey, i have no patience for this, for i stumble in all virtues.
look, you can find whatever faults you may, in scriptures or your feeble opinion of god–lower-case “G”!
but what you are failing to recognize, is the testimony of three humble hearts revealing themselves to you–in proof POSITIVE of the gain in their lives from being a Christian! (darn it!)
mumbo-jumbo to all the side-tracks… we’re not killing for our beliefs, we’re not hating anyone for our beliefs, but we are being witnesses to the ways Jesus has transformed our lives. and you can’t see it–because satan is shrouding your eyes.
we are here because we care about your soul – we three strangers hold to the same sentiment that we care about you.
you are failing to see the light and the love, because you are blinded and held captive from seeing the truth.
my prayer is that God truly rips the scales from your eyes!
i’ll be kinder and more in depth later, but for now, this is what i wish to express.
(more to come, and i feel better.)
one more… please trust me, the above was expressed in all light-heartedness, (yet serious-ness). there was a glimmer of a smile on my face all the while i wrote/posted that note…. like so: 🙂
all right geoffrey, in all seriousness, here goes. and this is address your noah and the ark bit…
again, from “Answers to tough questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith.” by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart:
“How many of each animal entered the ark?”
“And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; that they shall be male and female” (Genesis 6:19,20, NASB).
“You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep the offspring alive on the face of all the earth” (Genesis 7:2, 3, NASB).
At first reading the statements appear to be contradictory. First (Genesis 6:19, 20) Noah is commanded to bring two of every kind into the ark, then in Genesis 7:2, 3, seven of some animals and birds, and then later in 7:8, 9, the Scriptures speak of animals going in by twos.
However, Genesis 7:8, 9 does not speak of the ‘numbers’ of animals going in, but the ‘manner.’ Seven of each clean animal (three pairs, with another animal to be used for sacrifice) marched into the ark by twos, and the other animals also went in by pairs.
The remaining question of the possible contradiction between Genesis 6:19, 20 and Genesis 7:2, 3 is easily resolved when they are understood in the light of the literary practices of the ancients. A general statement would be made first, and then followed with another statement providing specifics.
This is the case here, with Genesis 6:19, 20 being the general statement and Genesis 7:2, 3 providing the additional detail that clean animals were to be taken by sevens, instead of just by twos as were the other animals. A male and a female, two of each kind, entered with an additional five of each clean animal.
so there ya have it! next?
Nope. It’s not inconsistent. But I understand your confusion.
While it may be true, you do not see any evidence of God. I have met many who say they believe and yet do not want to repent of their sins. They prefer their sin to what they think the Christian life holds for them. Once saved we all also choose to sin. And in fact, if it were not for the restraint of the Holy Spirit I’d run head first into it daily.
Put simply, sin is the breaking of laws. And God has given you his law in word form and as a conscience. Regardless of how you feel about them, they are there.
I did not mean to offend. I’m not name calling. I’m explaining the sin you are involved in. Your questioning is not sinful. Your disobedience is.
Glad to hear it. I don’t know that I agree with your assessment, but perhaps we put different weight on the word “foolish”. The goal of my discussion with you is to point you to the truth, which I believe I’ve done many times. At some point, it becomes foolishness for me to continue having the same discussion.
God alone is worthy of being glorified. Your praise adds nothing or takes nothing away from His perfection and again He gives us the free will to not praise Him if that be our desire.
hi all. geoffrey, you still around? i’m reading this book and came across a wonder paragraph. by Nancy Lee DeMoss:
“There is a wonderful verse in 1 Peter that shows us how Jesus’ sense of worth was determined, not by what others thought of Him – good or bad – but by the Truth as expressed by His Heavenly Father: He was “rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to Him” (2:4). Jesus was rejected by men – those He had created for Himself, those He loved and for whom He laid down His life. But that is not what determined His value. He was chosen by God; that this is what made Him precious; that is what determined His worth.
It is conceivable that someone who did not recognize or appreciate fine art would toss a masterpiece into the trash. Would that make the painting any less valuable? Not at all. The true worth of the art would be seen when an art collector spotted the painting and said, “That is a priceless piece, and I am willing to pay any amount to acquire it.”
When God sent His only Son, Jesus, to this earth to bear your sin and mine on the cross, He put a price tag on us – He declared the value of our soul to be greater than the value of the whole world. Whose opinion are you going to accept? Believing the lie will put you in bondage. Believing the Truth will set you free.”
***
i hope this sheds light on how much you are loved geoffrey, by your Creator who calls you to Him.
blessings to you all,
~colleen
Geoffrey, If you are still out there, I thought of something you might not have considered. Please drop a line here if you are still checking in and let me know if you are interested. It has to do with a question you ask me.
Jan
Hi all. I’m emerging from another deluge. I’ll reply soon. Meanwhile feel free to post any other additional points.
Hi Geoffrey, I am glad to see you stopped back by. A couple of things that I did not address that you mentioned were:
One, you said that you see the differences in the Old Testament and the New Testament as a difference in society at the time and it appeared to you that God had been through a 12 step program. I can actually see how a person who is looking at the Bible strictly from a secular or literary perspective might come to such a conclusion.
An indepth study of the old testament, however, will reveal something entirely different. The law, the prophets, the judges, the psalms, and each book in the old testament prepares the people for the coming of a major world event: the coming of Christ. There is a depiction of Christ in some form in every book of the Bible and there is a purpose not only for the events that occurred, but for the record to be retained. That is a study that takes quite some time, but there are some very good books on this if you get interested. The Bible does state, however that “Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.” Hebrews: 13:8.
For now, I would like for you to consider, did this world event occur? During the first century AD, long before radio, TV, internet and mass media, in Thessalonica, the Jews referred to those who preached Christ as “These that have turned the world upside down…” Acts 17:6. This major world event has not diminished in importance, but has rather continued to grow and change lives. Geoffrey, will you read Acts 5:33-39. Notice those words written 2000 years ago. “If it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it…” No one has been able to stop the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it is from God.
There is another issue I would like to address, but will save it for later.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and read the Bible passage. May God bless you as you read.
i guys, i hope you all are well! geoffrey, how’s it going?
this is a great clip by tommy nelson (the pastor i referenced many posts above) that gives an answer here that is insightful and can be very useful. it’s maybe 4 minutes long and absolutely worth listening to:
http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/21ChosenWillBelieve.mp3
for more q & a’s the rest can be found here:
http://www.metrobible.org/questions-tommy.html
I should be able to reply today. Sorry for the delay – I got hit with another wave.
I’ll start with the earliest comments and work my way forward.
Colleen: Post #63:
Re: “and i personally won’t get into the ridiculous Al Gore/global warming thing.”
I meant to reply back then, but never got around to it. Do you really not believe what the entire worldwide weather-science community has reached a solid consensus on?? What evidence do you have that they are wrong?
Post #135:
Re: “look, you can find whatever faults you may, in scriptures or your feeble opinion of god–lower-case “G”! but what you are failing to recognize, is the testimony of three humble hearts revealing themselves to you–in proof POSITIVE of the gain in their lives from being a Christian!”
You can’t say on the one hand that your beliefs are based on the Bible, and that the Bible is 100% true and 100% perfect, and then say on the other hand that faults in the Bible don’t matter. In science, and in real life, all that is required to disprove an idea is to show a single flaw. The idea then must change or be discarded. This is basic, simple logic.
Thus, if the Bible is the word of your god, and the Bible is flawed, then any logical person must conclude either: 1) your god goofed, or 2) the Bible is not his word, but the words of flawed humans. Either of these conclusions preclude 100% belief in the Bible. So do not brush aside faults that are found in the Bible.
Re: “what you are failing to recognize, is the testimony of three humble hearts revealing themselves to you–in proof POSITIVE of the gain in their lives from being a Christian!”
Mere words from humans hardly constitute “proof positive”! “Proof positive” comes after an idea survives rigorous questioning and testing. The Bible has failed. For example, you can’t claim that your god is all good and all powerful, while also admitting that he has ordered the murder of children. You may not think that killing children matters much. But to most people, it matters.
Yes, you have testified to the gain that you perceive to have gained from your Christian beliefs. But why stop there? What about the gain that you would get by studying nature? I have studied your Bible, but you have not studied the source of my beliefs. I have studied both, you have studied only one, and yet you tell me that my beliefs are wrong. How do you know, if you haven’t studied them? Answer: You can’t possibly know.
The information in the Bible is finite. The information beyond the Bible is vast and growing every minute. You have nothing to lose and much to gain by broadening your knowledge base. Will you not at least try? The UC Berkeley web site is an excellent place to start: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=41
Re: “Satan is shrouding your eyes.”
Thanks for your concern, but do you have any proof whatsoever of this statement? You are the one who refuses to study science. Your comments indicate that you are afraid to visit the UC Berkeley web site, as if it is somehow evil to learn about nature: “Satan would love for me to venture in there. He wants to rattle and stir up the believers into chaos and confusion.” On the other hand, I do not fear reading the Bible. Therefore, the only one shrouding their eyes is you.
Post #137:
Re: Noah’s ark contradiction, Colleen says (via Josh McDowell): “This is the case here, with Genesis 6:19, 20 being the general statement and Genesis 7:2, 3 providing the additional detail that clean animals were to be taken by sevens, instead of just by twos as were the other animals. A male and a female, two of each kind, entered with an additional five of each clean animal.”
There is a difference between “providing additional detail” and contradicting. Genesis 7:2, 3 is not simply providing additional detail. The first order “you shall bring two of every kind” is clearly at odds with the second order “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens.” It should be obvious to an all-knowing being that many people would be confused by these two statements. If this is your idea of perfection, then please consider raising your standards. A sixth-grader could have written better instructions. If your god truly wanted to be clear about it, why not just skip the first statement? The second one could stand perfectly well on its own. Such muddled instructions cannot be the work of a perfect being.
And by the way, I haven’t seen any mention in the Bible of the seventh animal being used for sacrifice, as Josh conveniently pulls from thin air. Honestly, you don’t wish for a more solid foundation than this?
Post #139:
Re: “Jesus’ sense of worth was determined, not by what others thought of Him – good or bad – but by the Truth as expressed by His Heavenly Father.”
So if I understand correctly, he didn’t care what others thought of him, only what his god thought of him. Of course, I believe his god sprang from his own imagination, so his opinion of himself ultimately came from himself. Thus, he convinced himself that he was the son of his god.
Re: “[Jesus] was chosen by God; that this is what made Him precious; that is what determined His worth.”
This sounds like Saddam’s Iraq, in which someone’s value is determined not by how good or capable they were, but by whether or not Saddam favored them. I do not believe we should value someone because a third party says they are important.
Returning to your painting analogy (“The true worth of the art would be seen when an art collector spotted the painting and said, “That is a priceless piece, and I am willing to pay any amount to acquire it”), did you see the painting that sold last week for the highest price ever paid for a work by a living artist? It’s horrible, in my humble opinion. See it here: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=axZlK9cPdTeo&refer=uk . Thus, I don’t care how much the buyer values it, to me it’s ugly.
Re: “When God sent His only Son, Jesus, to this earth to bear your sin and mine on the cross….”
By what mechanism is Jesus supposed to have born our sin? Can you please clarify exactly how this worked? Can sin be transferred? If so, why not transfer it to a tree and just kill the tree?
Re: “…He put a price tag on us – He declared the value of our soul to be greater than the value of the whole world.”
Where does this come from? Where does the Bible mention the value of our souls compared to the value of the whole world?
Re: “Whose opinion are you going to accept? Believing the lie will put you in bondage. Believing the Truth will set you free.”
As I have said above, I define the truth as the body of knowledge established by the scientific method. It’s been tested in the crucible of rigorous questioning, it’s solid, and it works, whether you believe in it or not. And I agree, the truth will set you free! Try it! Take a close-up look at how nature works. How does the sun emit photons? How does chlorophyll capture them? Where does the energy go? Where the heck did the platypus come from? How do dolphins sleep without drowning? What was it about the Galapagos Island finches that was such a revelation to Darwin? Look at the natural world around you! Ask questions! Every three-year-old has that capacity (my nephew: “How can a tree stand on just one stick?”), but so many people lose their sense of curiosity as they grow older. Why is that? Are you not interested in the natural world?
Just posted a reply to Colleen, now awaiting moderation.
To Ron:
Post #138:
Re: The following conversation:
—-
Ron: “Nothing is required” (to “gain eternal life”).
Me: “The guidelines on this that I’m getting from you and Colleen seem inconsistent with each other. She says “there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior.” Is this not a requirement?”
Ron: “Nope. It’s not inconsistent. But I understand your confusion.
—-
Ron, I don’t blame you for giving such a short, no-explanation answer. I wouldn’t be able to explain away the contradiction either. Clearly Colleen says there is a requirement, and equally clearly, you say there’s not. Yet you both claim to be following the Bible. I’ll leave it to you two to clear up your differences. Once again, I sorely wish that your god were a better writer.
Re: “While it may be true, you do not see any evidence of God. I have met many who say they believe and yet do not want to repent of their sins….”
This is irrelevant to the statement I made, to which you were supposedly responding, which was: “As Colleen and I demonstrated above (#72 and 98), belief is not a matter of free will. Neither of us can force ourselves to believe what the evidence at hand disputes. And unless you can choose to believe that a cat is a horse, then you are in the same camp.” Please try again.
Re: “Put simply, sin is the breaking of laws. And God has given you his law in word form and as a conscience. Regardless of how you feel about them, they are there.”
Says who? Again, do you have any proof of this statement whatsoever? Absolutely zero. And yet this is what you base your life on, instead of the huge body of evidence that HAS been proven.
Re: “Your questioning is not sinful. Your disobedience is.”
Again, you are using the word “sinful” to refer to the breaking of your god’s laws. But since I don’t believe in your god, then I cannot believe that I’m being sinful. Your word “sin” has no meaning to me.
Re: “God alone is worthy of being glorified.”
Once again: Says who? Did your god tell you this? If not, how does anyone know this? And if your god HAS told you this, that just proves my point about how insecure he is that he so desperately needs to be glorified.
To Jan:
Post #142: (In response to my statement that the God in the Bible appears to have gone through a 12-step program between the Old and the New Testament.)
Re: “There is a depiction of Christ in some form in every book of the Bible and there is a purpose not only for the events that occurred, but for the record to be retained.”
I do not see how this relates to the 12-step program comment that you are responding to. Can you clarify?
Re: “The Bible does state, however that ‘Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’”
This too seems irrelevant, as my “12-step program” remark was directed not at the Christ character in the Bible, but at the God character. Christ is not the one who ordered the babies of Jericho slaughtered. That was God. And yet Jesus paints God as some kind of peace-loving hippie. Answer this please: Would Jesus have ordered those babies killed?
Re: “For now, I would like for you to consider, did this world event occur?” [meaning the coming of Christ, I think]
I believe that Jesus was probably a real person and a great philosopher. And I believe that after he died, various stories about him circulated and his accomplishments grew with each telling, until they defied natural laws and became miracles. Long after he died, some of the stories were selected (by humans) for inclusion in what became the New Testament. I do not believe that Jesus was the son of his god.
Re: “No one has been able to stop the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it is from God.”
You could say the same about Islam. It is spreading at a respectable rate. Is that because it is from God? And if so, shouldn’t all Christians diligently study the Koran?
The spread of Christianity got a considerable boost from the Spanish Inquisition, when differing views were murderously expunged from Spain.
Hi Geoffrey,
I have been missing you and I’m glad you are back.
What I was trying to say in a previous post is that there was no 12 step program, even if there appears to be because the Bible does state that ‘Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’ Therefore, there would be no transformation, or step program as you see it. In other words, He did not change.
You also asked me if Christ would have ordered babies killed at Jericho. Jesus stated, “I and my father are One.” – John 10:30. And in John 5:30 we read, “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
Jesus came to do the will of the Father. Therefore, I have to conclude that “yes”, he would have and did agree with all that the Father did including what happened at Jericho.
Now, Geoffrey, I want to ask you a question before I go on, if I may. Would you, if you could get past or understand what happened at Jericho, change your mind about God?
How do others who are Christian accept difficult passages like this?
I can only speak for myself, but for me it is a matter of accepting the omnipotence of God who spoke our world into existence and loved me enough to die for me and to reveal Himself to me.
He created life and watched as man chose death over obedience to Him. At that point, death came into the world.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
When God chooses to take someone into eternity, He does so. I do not know why people die when they die and His purposes are not always made known to me. This I do know:
I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
This is the hope that Christ gives.
Jesus came into a world where death existed because of sin and paid the ultimate price to redeem me. His eleven disciples, who fled when He was crucified and hid while He was buried, were willing to tell the story and eventually to die a martyrs death after they witnessed the risen Lord. For 2,000 years now, there are those who are willing to be ridiculed, tortured, and killed rather than denounce the Lord. The Bible calls Christ the living Word. He reveals the nature of God to us in a way that we cannot know it otherwise. When you receive this living Word, the written word will be easier for you.
While you are correct that other religions have spread, other religions seldom bring persecution. Because Christ tells us that there is no other way for a man to be reconciled to God, other than through Him and His finished work at Calvary, Christians are always in jeopardy in many countries. And yet, people are converted to Christ every day.
Satan is at enmity with God. He constantly attempts to stop the spread of Christianity. There is spiritual warfare that goes on all around us. If you allow yourself to admit it, I believe that you will sense the battle that is being waged now for your own soul.
The reason Christians say that nothing is required in order for you to be saved is because Jesus paid it all. Think of this. If I buy my son a car and I offer to give it to him, he would have to accept it and sign the title. I can say, “The car is yours.” If I paid for it, he has no price to pay for it to be his. If, however,he refuses the title, and I should die, legally he would not own the car. In that sense, something is required. He would have to receive the gift that I gave to him. This is all that is required of me to receive eternal life with Christ. I must receive what He has given me.
Romans 10:9 puts it this way, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
There were many eye witnesses who testify that He was raised from the dead. There are millions who have the witness in their hearts and lives.
Geoffrey, I believe that at some point, you will know.
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him;…
Also, in Romans 1:21 we learn that no one is condemned who does not know:
“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
Someone prayed for me Geoffrey. I know that they did. I and others pray for you that your eyes will be opened and you will know Him. We are all sinners. We are either sinners saved by grace or sinners who die in our sins.
Geoffrey, I hear a lot about the discrepancies that God must overcome to prove himself to you. Yet there is incredible evidence for a designer in any place within creation you care to look. I’ve asked you to explore the manuscript, archaeological and prophetic evidence as proof, but instead you want to argue about how many animals were on the ark (both statements can be true, btw).
I wish you well, Geoffrey, but I don’t think your questions are anything you’ll ever accept answers to (aside from a radical change of heart). I hope I am wrong, but the previous month’s haven’t indicated that you are. I do believe I (and others) have clearly explained God’s standard, your guilt, the punishment you can expect, your need for a savior, and the grace available to you. Should I stand next to you on the day of Judgment, you won’t be able to look at me and say I didn’t try my best. I’ll keep praying for you. Keep in touch. I pray you find the truth.