Are You Good Enough to go to Heaven?

211 thoughts on “Are You Good Enough to go to Heaven?”

1. Ron –

   Re: “I hear a lot about the discrepancies that God must overcome to prove himself to you.”

   Yes, and not only him, but anyone who makes any claim about anything should be prepared to prove it if they want to be believed. If they can’t prove what they claim, they do not deserve to be believed.

   Re: “there is incredible evidence for a designer in any place within creation you care to look.”

   Incredible is the right word for it – it is difficult to believe. Semantics aside, name one piece of such evidence. Give me one example of a phenomenon, event, artifact, etc., whose existence has been proven, and for which a natural explanation has been conclusively ruled out.

   Re: “I’ve asked you to explore the manuscript, archaeological and prophetic evidence as proof”

   I will explore whatever you want. You should know by now that I have explored the manuscript. You brush off the contradictions I raised, such as the ark issue: “you want to argue about how many animals were on the ark.” That doesn’t count as discussion of the issue.

   I don’t recall your mentioning any specific archeological or prophetic evidence. If I’ve forgotten, please remind me and I’ll look at it. In posting #5, I specifically asked you for an example of prophetic evidence, and you never gave me one.

   Re: “I do believe I (and others) have clearly explained God’s standard, your guilt, the punishment you can expect, your need for a savior, and the grace available to you.”

   You have offered nothing more than opinion, for you have provided no proof. And if opinion counts as fact, then we must both be right.

   Re: : I’ll keep praying for you.”

   I appreciate the thought, but don’t bother. If prayers worked, we’d all be believers by now. If you really think praying does any good, then please spend your prayer time on those suffering in Burma, China, Africa, and a hundred other places. Pray that their problems will be solved immediately. I will look forward to seeing the results.

2. geoffrey, glad to see you back here.

   i’m going to reply in pieces, cos there is a lot to go thru. for starters, here is one link describing why i don’t buy into al gore’s global warming:

   http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/09/court-identifies-eleven-inaccuracies-al-gore-s-inconvenient-truth

   and besides, i don’t recall seeing anywhere in revelation (or anywhere in the bible for that matter), where man destroy’s the planet. God does according to revelation. He is in control of planet earth, completely. but i definitely believe we should do our part in taking care of the wonderful earth God gave us. i do recycle and try very hard not to be wasteful. i just don’t buy the global warming movement due to the agendas of such people as al gore.

   more to come.

3. geoffrey, did you listen to this link by chance? it covers so much. i learned some interesting new things from it:

   http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/21ChosenWillBelieve.mp3

   i’d love to know your thoughts. if you haven’t yet, will you please listen to it in the meantime (all the way til he finishes), while i go thru your posts?

4. there’s a lot to read thru and lots of points being made. one thing that comes to my mind geoffrey, is you point out areas of biblical discrepancies (in your opinion, which by the way, i never admitted the bible is flawed because i do not believe it is, anywhere. i was referring to your perspective, not mine.) but you are failing to see and understand that christianity is a personal, one on one relationship with you Creator who so deeply loves you. when you come to understand exactly how God loves you, you will develop a change of heart. you will not accept testimonies from the 3 of us in here who all agree that our lives have been changed since we have all accepted who Jesus was, and the gift He offers us, as proof. do you believe any history books then? you have not met the authors who are no longer alive, but you will believe what others write in history books, just not the authors of the bible, which is ironic given the remarkable status of the bible, it’s books, it’s survival, it’s growth, and it’s perfectly harmonious story written over hundreds and hundreds of years. it’s quite amazing how the prophet isaiah described Jesus to a T, then 700 years later, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy written about him, to a T! but go ahead and overlook that… (i know, those scales are in the way!)

   you are overlooking the proof we share with you, the testimonies of how our lives were changed since our conversion. you are overlooking how YOU are PROOF POSITIVE of how the bible describes a non-believer (those heaps of verses above). you are overlooking overwhelming evidence in 100% support of the bible, in its favor, and you are overlooking the most important thing of all…. how much God loves you!

   yes, there is wonderful gain in studying nature. the difference is, i see God in every aspect of nature, HIS nature, HIS creation. you see, well, what your eyes covered in scales can see, which obviously isn’t the creator. i’m telling you, when those scales come off you will see the world in a whole new way. 😉

   you made a comment i would like you to please prove… you said the bible failed. please tell us where?

5. Georffrey,
   May I quote you, and then ask you to tell me if you are referring to science and/or evolution?

   You stated, “I have studied your Bible, but you have not studied the source of my beliefs. I have studied both, you have studied only one, and yet you tell me that my beliefs are wrong. How do you know, if you haven’t studied them? ”

   I am not sure what source you are referring to, but I have a son who is a non-believer and his questions and tribulations have caused me to examine the world and the belief systems that exist in an indepth way that I probably would not have done, otherwise.

   I have studied evolution and find it lacking.

   Science is a tool for discovery, not a religion. I have studied it as well and find that while it is a great tool or method of discovery, it is, however, very limited. Medical science is a good example of the limitations. We make great strides, only to find that our lack of knowledge and/or wrong conclusions have forced us to pay an enormous price. Since early medicine, we have actually killed patients while trying to save them and continue to do so, even today. We have made few gains in extending the number of years a man might live since the number was set by God, and the quality is extremely questionable.

   We have not done much better with environmental science. We go from declaring that the human race is doomed due to global cooling to doomed due to global warming within a fifty year period. We declare a species extinct, only to have it turn up in an unexpected place. We are told one year that a substance is helpful and the next that it is harmful.

   Don’t get me wrong. I am not denying the advances mankind has made through science, but I do know that it is not the answer to all of mankind’s questions and problems.

   As for religions, other than Christianity, they do not measure up. They do not offer a solution to mankind’s sin problem and they do not give mankind a way of knowing God and having a relationship with Him. They are methods of man attempting to reach God. Christianity is God reaching down to man and offering a way of redemption. While the others offer ways for man to try and appease God, Christianity is a way God made for mankind to be made right with God through His work on our behalf.

   Why do we glorify God? Because the glory belongs to God. He is light, love, and truth. These are the things mankind needs in life for fulfillment, joy, and safety.

   You asked Ron a question that has caused me to want to share something with you. On the suject of prophecy, you asked, “What one prophecy do you find particularly compelling?”

   There is a prophecy that I find compelling that I want to share. It is found in the book of Daniel, but before I give it to you, I would like for you to think about our present day society. You often mention the advances made by science and I agree that we have learned an absolutely tremendous amount of information in the last century, particularly the last two decades and in the area of electronics. Also, consider the travel that is occurring around the world as I write this. Then read:

   Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: MANY SHALL RUN TO AND FRO, AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED.

   There are many other jewels tucked away in the word of God, but this is one that seems so relevant to today’s world.

   Thanks for reading my thoughts and conclusions.

   Jan

6. another point i’d like to make about the muslim comment… yes, it’s a growing religion. but, as with any other ‘religions’ outside of Christianity, you need to look into their definitions of 1) God and 2) Jesus. islam’s allah is not the same God of the Christians holy bible. there are various, major differences. they also do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

   the apostle paul writes:

   “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” –Galations 1:6-8

   still more to come.

7. Hi Jan,

   I’m glad to be back. Thanks for your kind words. I too miss our conversation when I can’t get back to it as soon as I would like. I’ll deal with your first posting here, and your next one next.

   Re: “The Bible does state that ‘Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’ He did not change.”
   And Re: “yes, he would have and did agree with all that the Father did including what happened at Jericho.”

   Thank you for that straightforward answer and for not beating around the bush on this difficult question. I was surprised by your answer. I didn’t think that a Christian would believe Jesus capable of ordering the murder of innocent babies. But I agree with your logic: If Jesus is 100% obedient to his god, then one can reach no other conclusion but that he would have agreed with the killings, and would have ordered them if necessary, and even would have committed the killings himself if ordered to.

   However, such behavior seems inconsistent with all of his other teachings about peace and loving thy neighbor. It is so paradoxical that I find it impossible to believe that both Jesuses existed in one person, unless he had multiple personalities, which I doubt anyone accepts.

   So this is one issue on which I view the Bible as self-contradictory. It can’t say “Thou shalt not kill,” and “love everyone,” and then say “Nevermind. Go and kill the most innocent people on the planet.” What kind of a guide is this for life? How can anyone be faulted for not accepting both? Why should anyone rejecting the killing of live, post-natal babies be subjected to eternal torture in hell simply for thinking, “This is wrong!”

   Furthermore, why would Jesus kill babies for his god? Why the slavish obedience? If my dad told me to do something like that, I’d think he was nuts! Why is it suddenly wonderful just because a god orders it? Why should I abandon all sense of morality just to please such a god, even if he DOES exist? I would not want to spend 2 seconds with such a creature, who, in all honesty, I would have to view as a maniac.

   It defies logic on another level as well. If this god were all-powerful and all-good, couldn’t he come up with a better way to deal with these babies? Why not just add some extra land to the earth, so that the Israelites don’t have to take someone else’s land? If war and killing babies is the best idea he can come up with, then we’ve got big trouble with him in charge.

   My best guess is that Joshua never received any orders from any god to go seize land and kill babies. It seems infinitely more likely that he told his people this convenient lie in order to rally them to wipe out everyone in Jericho (and other places) so that he could take over. This explanation requires no contortions of logic. And because the Jews won, they were able to paint their murderous acts heroically in the Old Testament, and it was their mythology that lived on. Had Jericho prevailed, their gods and traditions would have survived, probably displacing those of the Jews.

   Re: “Would you, if you could get past or understand what happened at Jericho, change your mind about God?”

   No, there are just too many reasons to believe that no god exists. The Jericho infanticides are only a part of it. Beyond that, the whole mythology doesn’t make sense:

   First, the God character is all-knowing. That means that even before he creates the universe and mankind, he knows how everything is going to turn out. So why does he need to bother with creation? If his ultimate goal is to gather up all the good souls to live with him in eternal bliss, why not just proceed to that part of the plan? Surely he knows which souls are good. And why are there any bad souls? Did he goof when making them?

   Next: sin. Again, he knows that Adam and Eve are going to eat the apple. So why does he get so mad when they do? And why does he convict all of their descendents of the crime? This makes no sense. It seems more likely that Adam and Eve never existed except in Jewish mythology, as a way to explain why, despite being the “chosen people,” they are still subject to bad things like disease, famine, etc. There are as many of these stories as there are religions.

   It is often said that Jesus “took on” the sins of the world. Several times in this discussion, I have asked for some information on exactly how this “taking on” of sin occurred. What’s the mechanism?

   And why was it necessary in your god’s plan for the Romans to kill Jesus? This seems like a hopelessly convoluted way to get rid of sin. Why not just create a holy vacuum cleaner to suck up all sin in the world? Why create sin in the first place? Why the need to transfer the sin to a human and kill the human? Or, if killing was necessary, why not transfer the sin to a tree and then have the Romans kill the tree? Also, why does your god not do the killing himself? As I’ve said previously, if only he had done his own killing, then humans would have never had to violate the “Don’t kill” commandment and your god would not have set the precedent for humans killing in his name. But since he supposedly had humans do the killing for him, any human can kill and say he/she is doing it for God, and no one can prove him/her wrong.

   And why is Judas depicted as a bad guy, when he was playing a crucial role in God’s plan?

   It seems much more likely that the Jews and the Romans who killed Jesus were not part of any divine plan, but that they killed him because he was a threat to them. Again, no contortions of logic needed.

   Next: the virgin birth. Why is it so important that Jesus be born of a virgin? Is sex dirty? It seems far more likely that he was not born of a virgin, and that the story was written with the ancient idea of “virginity = purity” that is simply not true, and that the story is just one more in a string of “virgin birth” stories begun in earlier religions.

   Next: miracles. Just plain hard to believe. The more fantastic the story, the more proof is needed. Why not send a new messiah every generation or so, so everyone can see them do miracles? I guarantee, your god would have a far greater conversion rate.

   Next: the trinity. Three components of a single being, one of whom is the son of another. Again, this defies logic. It’s an idea that originated a few hundred years after Jesus died. Your god expects me to believe this?

   Next: monotheism. How does one define a god? My simplest definition would be: A conscious entity that is capable of defying natural laws. If this is accurate, would not Satan be considered a god? How about the angels? How about the saints? I don’t think Judaism or Christianity are really monotheistic. There appear to be one main god and many minor gods.

   Next: revelations. Sounds like someone had a bad LSD trip. Truly, that could explain Revelations. And I’m supposed to base my life on this mess? Does your god really think I’m so indiscriminate in my beliefs?

   Those are just a few of the many things in the Bible that don’t make sense to me. And it troubles me to know that Christians teach their kids that there is something wrong with me and everyone else who cannot accept the Bible as the Ultimate Truth.

   Re: “How do others who are Christian accept difficult passages like this [the baby-killing episodes of the Bible]?”

   I am interested as well. Ron and Colleen, and anyone else, what do you think of these incidents?

   Re: “The Bible calls Christ the living Word. He reveals the nature of God to us in a way that we cannot know it otherwise. When you receive this living Word, the written word will be easier for you.”

   This is circular logic. Naturally it would be easier for me to believe the Bible if I already believed that Jesus was my savior. If I could convince myself that the Easter Bunny exists, it would be easier to believe writings about the Easter Bunny. But when the written word contradicts itself, then that alone is sufficient to prevent me from believing it.

   Re: “While you are correct that other religions have spread, other religions seldom bring persecution… And yet, people are converted to Christ every day.”

   Many other religions have experienced extreme persecution, sometimes at the hands of Christians. In Spain, of course, the Spanish Inquisition persecuted all non-Christians. Christians have persecuted Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, and others. Jews, of course, have been persecuted all over the place. The fact that people are converted to Christianity everyday says absolutely nothing about the truth of Christianity, unless you determine truth by popularity. But advertise anything, and you’ll get customers. If truth were the reason for conversion, everyone would believe in evolution, which is a scientifically proven truth.

   Re: “Satan is at enmity with God. He constantly attempts to stop the spread of Christianity.”

   Why is it that your god will kill babies with ease, but will not kill Satan? How does this make sense?

   Re: “If I buy my son a car and I offer to give it to him, he would have to accept it and sign the title. I can say, “The car is yours.” If I paid for it, he has no price to pay for it to be his… This is all that is required of me to receive eternal life with Christ. I must receive what He has given me.”

   For this “receiving the car” analogy to truly represent the “receiving of eternal life,” you need to have similar requirements for both. Specifically, before you give the car to your son, you need to require your son to believe something that he cannot believe. Under this requirement, I would not be able to accept the car. “Receiving” Christ is a misnomer that makes it sound as if one is simply accepting delivery of a package. It omits the requirement that one first swallow a raft of contradiction and absence of proof.

   Re: “Romans 10:9 puts it this way, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

   Or, in other words, “Just believe the way I tell you, and no one gets hurt.” If I were in the shoes of Jesus, I would say, “Don’t believe me. Believe the proof, which I have published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.” Why not? How better to confound that evil scientific establishment? Sit down with a panel of scientists and magicians (seriously, because magicians know about trickery), pass every test with flying colors, and be done with it!

   Re: “There were many eye witnesses who testify that He was raised from the dead. There are millions who have the witness in their hearts and lives.”

   There were many eyewitnesses who believed that “psychic surgeons” were removing tumors without cutting, when in fact they were using trickery. There were many eyewitnesses who believed that televangelist Robert Tilton was correctly identifying their illnesses by receiving the information from God, when he was actually receiving it from his wife via radio. The tobacco industry testified for years that they didn’t know that cigarettes were harmful, but their own documents proved they were lying. The bottom line is simply this: Don’t believe ANYTHING without proof. Even me!

   Re: “Also, in Romans 1:21 we learn that no one is condemned who does not know:
   “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

   I don’t quite follow what you mean here.

   Re: “I and others pray for you”

   As I said to Ron, I appreciate the thought, but I have no faith in prayers. If you do, then please spend your time praying for the millions in this world struggling for their lives.

8. Hey Geoffrey,
   I am not going to spend so much time on this because I am not able to argue you into believing as I said at the beginning.

   I do want to clear up a few things:

   Re: “Also, in Romans 1:21 we learn that no one is condemned who does not know:
   “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

   Geoffrey says, “I don’t quite follow what you mean here.”

   I did not make the statement, God did. When we refuse to accept truth, we become unable to recognize it eventually.

   Another statement was :
   RE – Go and kill the most innocent people on the planet.” What kind of a guide is this for life?

   Geoffrey, I hope you are helping fight against the slaughter of unborn babies by our society as you seem to clearly think it is wrong.

   I have to remind myself that your complaints and charges are not against me, or Ron, or Colleen. You are angry with the One who created you and you think you know better how to run the universe than He. You decide that the creature should dictate to the Creator how things should be done. Perhaps the fact that if you believe that you were created by a Holy God then you must be accountable to Him, prevents you from allowing yourself to believe. Submission is required and that is difficult.

   Multitudes of great theologians and scholars have read the account of Jerchico and have remained faithful to God because they know Him.

   I look at God’s creation and redemption and praise Him. You look at the same things and shake your fist.

   If you believe that evolution can explain the origin of life, the universes and beyond, and the soul of man, you have great faith, not proof. You DO believe something that cannot be proven.

   God is good and how he deals with his creation is really His business. No one is forcing you to believe or receive. It does sadden me that you must survive with no hope for anything more than what is offered in this life and after that the judgement.

   Jan

9. 5-28-08

   Here it is laid out as simple as i can put it, or know how to put it. It really does not matter what you or i choose to believe… that will not change the reality of who God is, what He has done, what His plan for mankind is, what will ultimately happen, or WHY any of this is here for us to question in the first place. It is God’s doing, God’s decision, and He says He does everything for His glory–including creating mankind that He takes delight in.

   All i know is, God changed my life. My relationship with Jesus gives me so much hope. I see what He has done for me, and i realize i will never be worthy enough to enter into God’s heavenly realm… not without Jesus paying the price for my sin, just as He did. We are a fallen mankind, period. It’s a fact we cannot change, and God explains why it is so in the book of Genesis.

   God always existed. No one can explain why or how, but again, it is just the way it is. Believe it or not, it won’t change what is. No human being will offer the one magical piece of proof or evidence to make a non-believer suddenly go, NOW I SEE IT. That will never happen. God will open the skeptic’s eyes in His own timing. Some things you just can’t think too much about, because your brain will not wrap around it and you will become frustrated. In those times… sit back, relax, and trust in the all-mighty Creator who says He has everything in His control. (big sigh.)

   God created man for his pleasure. Evil stepped into the picture (in Heaven, Lucifer and His comrades decided to be like God, and God said ‘I don’t think so” and cast them into Hell. Now we have Satan a.k.a Lucifer and his demons. All fallen angels)… and God allowed His creation to be put to the test. God wanted to know if His created ones loved Him enough or not, to trust Him and obey Him fully. Man failed the test, and all generations live with the consequence to the sin of Adam and Eve. I am certain they were remorseful and repentant, but the consequence still remains and now we all are faced with death. Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge, and they did. I believe they would have lived forever had they not disobeyed God. Just as they were warned not to fall into sin (and give in to temptation), so are we, that we not become ensnared in Satan’s traps. But we still do, and we still have consequences to deal with. Christian or not.

   Here’s the cool thing though… God never leaves us as we face our consequences, nor in our suffering. God promises we will all suffer. He also promises to be there with us, to help carry us when we are too weak to walk. God will forgive us of our sins we repent for (being truly sorry in our hearts). He is faithful to us, even though we are not faithful to obey and always follow Him. It is because of His unconditional love, He waits for us over and over and over again.

   God loves His creation and is saddened when we disobey His commands. His commands are there for our good. They are commandments that are good! If everyone followed the 10 commandments, there would indeed, be peace on earth. See what rebellion against God leads to? No peace on earth, heartache, pain, suffering, chaos and death. God knew in advance this would be… yes. He knows the future. The bible tells us He also knows how many hairs are on each of our heads. That is how much He pays attention to each individual. He is so very personal.

   No one asked to be born. But we are here. We were created. No one can deny we exist. ‘Something’ made us, ‘something’ put us here. I believe it to be God as He says. Because His word, and only His word (the bible) flows from beginning to end with perfection. What some cannot fully understand however, they dismiss all together. It is usually due to their lack of biblical knowledge. The bible gives us all the answers. We are given instructions to go thru this life as best as possible, if only we would listen! We are an arrogant and stubborn mankind. We don’t want to be told we are not born of a good and righteous nature, yet we are told by God just the opposite–that we are born of a sinful nature, corrupt and destined for death. Well, okay then God, what can i do to be righteous? Glad you asked, He says. Believe in me, and believe in Jesus! Trust in Him. He paid the debt for you, that you can never pay. Believe in Him, what He did for you, and you are sealed in my hands forever.

   A quick interjection about the bible, God’s word… It was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors. No book holds the status the bible holds. No book can brilliantly fit together like a perfect puzzle from beginning to end, the way the bible does. I think upon it as impossible, unless it was God-breathed. After all, He is God, and He can inspire man to write His book of instructions if He so desires. He gave some of the authors perfect memories of their encounters with Jesus. He also promises to protect the bible, which He has. He also warns against believing in other books/authors/prophets who come along with claims of being from God. Which they certainly have surfaced. He also calls Satan the great deceiver… and what better way for mass deception, than thru the confusion of various religions. God completed the bible thru Revelation. Anything after that is false, period. God says so, and God does not teach confusion. 2000 years later and the bible is still the best-selling book. There is something magnificent to be said about that book!

   You see, God saw we weren’t doing so well down here, so he intervened in a drastic way. He made Himself flesh, born of a miraculous, virgin, and walked the earth. The virgin birth represents purity in the highest form. Jesus was pure in every way–blameless and sinless. So now God is here, and we can see Him, touch Him, walk with Him and talk with Him. We can witness His miracles, learn His teachings, watch His death and see Him after His resurrection. He has no blemish. He is perfect. He is the risen God.

   God in Jesus came here and was tempted in every way we are, so we can’t use that excuse against Him–that He doesn’t know what we are going thru. He was also tortured beyond measure, so we can’t say to Him, you don’t care that I am hurting. You don’t understand. He has been there, so He does understand. He had to be tempted and He had to suffer until His death. We all face death, we all die. Jesus went thru everything we go thru, so as to fully experience life here on earth, as man. We can relate to Him and He to us. The relationship has been established. It is ongoing…

   Because Jesus didn’t stay dead… He ascended back to Heaven, and He dwells in us. He lives inside of those who call upon Him. He did this as a way for us, so we too, can conquer death if we just believe in Him. The bible explains how sin leads to death. In other words, we will die in our sins. UNLESS, we cling to Jesus who is no longer dead, but alive. The symbolism there, is that thru Him, we too can have eternal life. Without Him, we are dead.

   To conclude, we are all destined for Hell, for judgement passed upon us based on the fact we are not pure, we are not righteous, and nothing imperfect can enter God’s perfect Heaven. God is wonderful, for graciously providing us with a way to escape judgement. He allowed the death of His precious, beloved Son to impute righteousness upon any one willing to accept His gift! WOW! What an awesome, amazing God. It’s an easy way… it is by nothing of ourselves. We don’t ever have to worry about being good enough to go to Heaven when we die, because the truth be told in scriptures, not one of is good enough. What a relief! Trusting is Jesus is all that is necessary. That’s it. Done. Once you do that, you are forever his. It must come from within… from the depths of your heart. God knows sincere and insincere beliefs. No catch, no gimmicks. Just believe in Jesus, God as man, that He took on your judgement on the cross, and put your sins to death with Him. The bible tells us the path to heaven is narrow… to enter at the narrow gates. In other words, the truth is, less will inherit heaven than the whole of all men. It may not be the biggest religion, or the most glamorous (Christianity)… but it promises salvation and a personal, one-on-one relationship with God Himself. It promises a way to approach God, to be held in His arms, and live with Him forever. It promises forgiveness when we disobey or give in to temptation. Aside form the natural consequence of our sins, God does not punish us. Once your heart recognizes your wrong-doings, God knows your hurt and never again remembers upon that sin. How truly great is that!

   You can choose which angle you wish to view God from, but He makes all things clear and broadens the wisdom of those who come to know Him. I know Him as my personal, loving deliverer i will one day get to stand face to face with. I look forward to the first moment i see Him, and He looks at me and smiles, hugs me, and welcomes me into His kingdom.

   How devastatingly tragic the notion of facing Him, and having Him look upon one and say, “depart from me. I never knew you.” No pleading in all the world will change His mind. It is too late once you die, it is too late then. He calls each of us while we have life, while he graciously gives us our next breath.

   The bottom line is, God is good. God is love. He has a gift for you, one that will last forever. It is free for you, but it cost His Son His life. Honor God, and take the gift before you, while you live to accept Him. He will bless you, and mold you into the likeness of Christ more and more each day. You will experience a heart filled with promise and hope in this decaying world we live in. You will look beyond here and now, and begin to focus on the world to come… your eternal place in Heaven. You will see nature in a different way, and give God praises and glory for the wonders He created. WHen you experience pain, you will be able to cry out to God and feel His presence with you when you think you are alone. You will experience love, mercy, grace, worship. You will have your own personal experience with God who loves you and draws you to Him. Words won’t be able to fully express the joy, the delight and the comfort from knowing God personally. You have two choices, take Him or leave Him. I’d hate for anyone to suffer forever, because their limited knowledge and lack of understanding had them reject their omnipotent Creator! I’d much rather err in obedience to Him, than err by my own ignorance and arrogance, then pay the eternal price. (Forever apart from the presence of God and all His glory, and cast into the “pit” of hell where evil dwells.) Sounds harsh, but reality is just that way. Right now, God is extending His hand out to give you a way out. Are you going to take hold while you have the chance? Let is start with basic trust. Give in. Say, ‘Okay God, i am here and ready to listen. Speak to my heart, reveal yourself to me. I humble myself before you and want to know your truth. Give me Jesus. Show me i am nothing without Him in my life. Hold me up to the light and expose me for what i am. Show me my filth that needs to be washed away by the blood of your Son. I choose you God. I need you to guide me in this life. I need you to teach me to trust in you and learn to do what you want me to do. Here i am God, change me.’

   That is a prayer worth saying. But you must mean it. As your relationship with Him grows, He will fill in the missing pieces. If you do, without a doubt, your heart will be transformed.

   In the love of Christ, i write,
   ~Colleen

10. geoffrey, one more time, here’s this:

    http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/21ChosenWillBelieve.mp3

    have you listened to it yet? all of it? it says a lot…

    please share your input. 🙂

11. Colleen,

    Have you been to the web site I posted?

12. hi geoffrey,

    um, i will… but i posted mine first (#143), so if we go in order, then you should go ahead and listen to it. it’s only 4-5 minutes long. i know you can handle it. =)

    once you reply, i’ll post my opinion of your links on post #145.

    i definitely want to know what you think… so i’ll be checking for your response.

    more soon! happy friday, all!!

13. i’m sorry, but the photo of the fat lady was hilarious. i can’t believe someone paid that much for it… maybe their aunt painted it or something, and they are very very rich.

14. one more…

    geoffrey,

    i skimmed this link before, and said earlier that there is way to much going on in there, that i can even comprehend. tell you what, i’ll give 5 minutes to your link, the same amount of time for you to listen to mine. can you please give me something more specific to go to, than a link that takes me to many more links?

    thanks.

15. I actually posted mine first, up at #35 and even earlier. But OK, I’ll give your site 5 minutes if you give mine the same (though I hope you’ll find it worth more than 5 minutes). I would recommend starting here: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_14

    Then just keep hitting “Next,” and before you know it, you’ll be an expert in evolution! And let me know if you have any questions.

16. okay, i’ll start with this link. i’ll start with 5 minutes and see if this continues leading me to read more.

    please share your thoughts on tommy’s 5 minute answer, and i’ll reply once i do some reading.

    thanks,
    ~colleen

17. you know what geoffrey, this is silly. i skimmed thru about the first 6 pages. i’m honestly just not interested in reading this site, not because i don’t believe in evolution to certain degrees, but because it simply doesn’t hold my interest. it’s like i’m back in high school falling asleep in science class trying to read this stuff.

    i honestly don’t understand what it is you are trying to “sell” in here. i have no problem believing things evolve and change in time, but there is no way this universe evolved from nothing, if that is what you are getting at. if that is the ultimate end of your beliefs, i don’t know how you can back that up, being a guy who adamantly needs proof and all.

    beating a dead horse here… but we are here, showing you an offering from God that is so great, that you can actually have! you are here, offering us a belief system that is so empty, that is so meaningless, that offers you and me, jann, ron or anyone, absolutely nothing. i just don’t understand why we are even debating this stuff, based on that alone. you want to bring us into your side, into your belief system, but why? it’s depressing! it basically says we are masses of nothing! we have no end other than rotting in the dirt. your beliefs or theories offer no hope, no God, no order, no plan, no eternity, no love, no relationship with our loving Creator… not even anything so great to extend to us while we are here on earth. nothing! it’s entirely empty and depressing. why would anyone here trade in the promise, hope, love and beauty of a personal relationship with God, for something that offers nothing? we’d have to be insane to do so. seriously, what do you think is so great about your beliefs? because what i see, is satan trying desperately to rob you of true joy. you are sold on his lies, i hate to say, and i do hope and pray your heart changes.

    have you listened to tommy’s answer yet? if not, i thought you were here to be open to new suggestions and ideas. i am leading you to a great one… yet you haven’t responded to it. it may or may not change your mind at all, but he addressed terrific points that are general and good for unbelievers to take in. it may at least get your wheels spinning and get you thinking more.

    lastly, there is no way–not in the slightest chance ever, that you will change the minds of us with what you are sharing in here. the common thing the 3 of us have, is a living God dwelling inside of us, and that can never change–He will never leave us. therefore, our very natures will never turn away from Him for another–especially a system of theories that offers the opposite of the beauty and glory of God. what you are failing to understand, is He is a living God whose Holy Spirit lives inside those to come to Him.

    we’re down to ours – believing in the promise of hope and eternity with Him, or yours – offering meaninglessness, nothingness and no relationship with God…

    no thank you geoffrey.

18. Hi Colleen,

    Re: “i’m honestly just not interested in reading this site, not because i don’t believe in evolution to certain degrees, because it simply doesn’t hold my interest.”

    Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying, unlike some, who are afraid I’m Satan’s little helper and won’t even go near a web site that I suggest. At least now you know where you can find answers if you ever want to learn more. An informed population is sorely needed in this world, given that some still don’t believe in proven phenomena such as global warming.

    Re: “i have no problem believing things evolve and change in time.”

    Then you, Jan, and I all believe in evolution. Ron still does not.

    Re: “there is no way this universe evolved from nothing, if that is what you are getting at. if that is the ultimate end of your beliefs, i don’t know how you can back that up, being a guy who adamantly needs proof and all.”

    The question of where the universe came from is different from the question of where life came from. Evolution explains how we got here after the universe was born. Honestly, no one knows where the universe came from. As you mentioned in post #40 and elsewhere, there is strong evidence that it took its current form as the result of a “big bang.” However, what preceded and caused the Big Bang is unknown. I’ve said above that I believe the universe always existed in some form or another, so I do not believe that it “came from nothing,” as you say. However, I have no proof; I believe it because it makes the most sense. If a more solid, sensible idea arises, then my belief will automatically change accordingly. I have no vested interest in supporting one idea over another. I don’t believe I’ll go to hell for believing the “wrong” thing. I just want to learn what happened. If anyone can prove that one or more gods created the universe, I will happily follow the evidence. But there is no more evidence for your creation story than there is for mine or the the many others I listed above in post #52.

    So you may ask, “Why not believe that a god created the universe then, if no one really knows one way or the other?” Two reasons, mainly:

    1) There appears to be no god in existence today, so I do not believe that a god has ever existed;
    2) The existence of a god seems far less plausible than the alternative. After all, which is more likely:
    A) that the universe always existed (or came from nothing), or
    B) that a god, which is infinitely more complex than the universe, always existed (or came from nothing)?

    Because the simpler explanation is usually the truth, I easily side with the first possibility. Furthermore, you and I both accept the idea that something, either your god or the universe, has always existed. And if one accepts the idea of infinite existence, one should have no trouble believing that the universe has always existed, and then there is no need for a creator.

19. Re: “we are here, showing you an offering from God”

    Yes, and why isn’t your god here? Why can’t he make the offer himself? Why does he expect me to believe you, when you can’t even prove your case? If your god “delights in us,” as you claim, why won’t he lift an almighty finger to show himself? Again, the simplest answer is that there is no god.

    Re: “you are here, offering us a belief system that is so empty, that is so meaningless, that offers you and me, jann, ron or anyone, absolutely nothing…. it’s depressing!

    The only thing I preach is reason. I’m sorry you find reason so repulsive. I’m sorry I can’t offer you a thrilling fairy-tale with magical creatures, a grand wizard protector, and a land without death. All I can offer is the suggestion that you study the world around you. Learn that which has been proven, so that you can better understand how your universe really works. Every citizen of this earth has the obligation to understand it, so that they can take better care of it, and so they can teach their children to do the same. But you say that learning about this beautiful, natural world is “silly” and “simply doesn’t hold [your] interest”. It is a shame that you are so disinterested in the beauty of life here on earth, and in how we can maintain it. To quote Albert Camus: “For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life.”

    You call my belief system “meaningless.” This is an empty wish on your part. You claim to know what you haven’t bothered to learn. You are in no position to criticise my beliefs in nature and natural laws, because you haven’t studied them. You do not understand how natural laws control the universe, because you haven’t studied them. Naturally, if one bases one’s life on “Cinderella” and never looks any further, then he/she will not understand the views of those who have gone beyond “Cinderella.”

    To me, nothing could be more meaningless than bowing and scraping before the altar of a totally made-up creature. Nevermind that the mythology surrounding this creature tells you that it’s OK to kill innocent, healthy, post-natal babies while seizing the property of their parents. Yes, that sure is a loving creator you have there. So please answer my question, which I’ve asked a number of times: Would you do as Joshua did? Would you kill babies if so ordered by your god? Jan believes that Jesus would have. Do you agree?

    Meaningless? Life has whatever meaning we give it. The ultimate waste of time is to worship nothingness, follow imaginary orders, and live in fear that we might not get into an imaginary paradise. Alternatively, we can spend life pursuing truth, improving the world, and enjoying the beauty of life. Life that is based on reality is as deep and rich as that reality. You believe that exploring reality is “silly,” so you won’t explore it. And therefore you will never know how deep and rich it can be. You are left believing in the unproven unnatural world, which is inconsistent with what has been proven and even inconsistent with itself. God is all good, but he kills innocent babies for the sake of seizing property. That makes sense. Jesus is love, but he would have supported the Jericho baby-killings, and would have even committed them if asked. God is all-knowing, but he’s surprised that Adam and Eve eat the apple. God is perfect, but his creations aren’t, and he doesn’t know which ones are good until after they die. The Bible is perfect, but it has not been translated perfectly, and it contradicts itself to boot, so it’s not perfect.

    Thus, Christianity seems to be nothing more than an elaborate hoax. As in the Wizard of Oz, one must pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

20. Around and around we go. I want to jump back in because this was a fascinating post, GK. It seems to say you are choosing to believe one thing over another. Because it makes the most sense _to you_. Again, to repeat myself, I do believe in the micro “evolution” as somewhat stated in the diagrams. What I don’t believe and they don’t show is upward evolution where we see the addition of never before seen generation. The kind needed for Darwinian evolution. But we’ve beat the horse-osaurus to death. See post 21.

    Here’s a question for you. And how you answer depends on whether we are just putting “words in the wind.” or casting our pearls before swine.

    Are you open to the idea that their might be a God who will judge you according to your sins on the day of Judgment? Because if not, there is really no point in our debating anything. All anyone from my side can do is pray God softens your heart.

    Oh and Yes, I am closed on the topic of Darwinian Evolution. I have examined the a great deal of evidence and found it lacking. It also offers no hope to the bigger questions of why we are here and what purpose we have in this life.

21. Yes, I believe that death is final. If so, that’s just the price we pay for life, and it’s well worth it. And therefore, we’d better make the most of this life. But who really knows? Maybe there is some natural process by which a consciousness persists after death. That would be nice. There’s no proof for it, of course, so I’m not going to base my life on the assumption that it’s waiting for me, and I’m certainly not going to believe any else’s made-up rules for getting to that made-up place called heaven. Nobody alive has been there, so nobody alive can possibly know if it exists, much less how to get there.

22. Hi Colleen,

    Re: “i’m honestly just not interested in reading this site, not because i don’t believe in evolution to certain degrees, because it simply doesn’t hold my interest.”

    Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying, unlike some, who are afraid I’m Satan’s little helper and won’t even go near a web site that I suggest. At least now you know where you can find answers if you ever want to learn more. An informed population is sorely needed in this world, given that some still don’t believe in proven phenomena such as global warming.

    Re: “i have no problem believing things evolve and change in time.”

    Then you, Jan, and I all believe in evolution. Ron still does not.

    Re: “there is no way this universe evolved from nothing, if that is what you are getting at. if that is the ultimate end of your beliefs, i don’t know how you can back that up, being a guy who adamantly needs proof and all.”

    The question of where the universe came from is different from the question of where life came from. Evolution explains how we got here after the universe was born. Honestly, no one knows where the universe came from. As you mentioned in post #40 and elsewhere, there is strong evidence that it took its current form as the result of a “big bang.” However, what preceded and caused the Big Bang is unknown. I’ve said above that I believe the universe always existed in some form or another, so I do not believe that it “came from nothing,” as you say. However, I have no proof; I believe it because it makes the most sense. If a more solid, sensible idea arises, then my belief will automatically change accordingly. I have no vested interest in supporting one idea over another. I don’t believe I’ll go to hell for believing the “wrong” thing. I just want to learn what happened. If anyone can prove that one or more gods created the universe, I will happily follow the evidence. But there is no more evidence for your creation story than there is for mine or the the many others I listed above in post #52.

    So you may ask, “Why not believe that a god created the universe then, if no one really knows one way or the other?” Two reasons, mainly:

    1) There appears to be no god in existence today, so I do not believe that a god has ever existed;
    2) The existence of a god seems far less plausible than the alternative. After all, which is more likely:
    A) that the universe always existed (or came from nothing), or
    B) that a god, which is infinitely more complex than the universe, always existed (or came from nothing)?

    Because the simpler explanation is usually the truth, I easily side with the first possibility. Furthermore, you and I both accept the idea that something, either your god or the universe, has always existed. And if one accepts the idea of infinite existence, one should have no trouble believing that the universe has always existed, and then there is no need for a creator.

    Re: “we are here, showing you an offering from God”

    Yes, and why isn’t your god here? Why can’t he make the offer himself? Why does he expect me to believe you, when you can’t even prove your case? If your god “delights in us,” as you claim, why won’t he lift an almighty finger to show himself? Again, the simplest answer is that there is no god.

    Re: “you are here, offering us a belief system that is so empty, that is so meaningless, that offers you and me, jann, ron or anyone, absolutely nothing…. it’s depressing!

    The only thing I preach is reason. I’m sorry you find reason so repulsive. I’m sorry I can’t offer you a thrilling fairy-tale with magical creatures, a grand wizard protector, and a land without death. All I can offer is the suggestion that you study the world around you. Learn that which has been proven, so that you can better understand how your universe really works. Every citizen of this earth has the obligation to understand it, so that they can take better care of it, and so they can teach their children to do the same. But you say that learning about this beautiful, natural world is “silly” and “simply doesn’t hold [your] interest”. It is a shame that you are so disinterested in the beauty of life here on earth, and in how we can maintain it. To quote Albert Camus: “For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life.”

    You call my belief system “meaningless.” This is an empty wish on your part. You claim to know what you haven’t bothered to learn. You are in no position to criticise my beliefs in nature and natural laws, because you haven’t studied them. You do not understand how natural laws control the universe, because you haven’t studied them. Naturally, if one bases one’s life on “Cinderella” and never looks any further, then he/she will not understand the views of those who have gone beyond “Cinderella.”

    To me, nothing could be more meaningless than bowing and scraping before the altar of a totally made-up creature. Nevermind that the mythology surrounding this creature tells you that it’s OK to kill innocent, healthy, post-natal babies while seizing the property of their parents. Yes, that sure is a loving creator you have there. So please answer my question, which I’ve asked a number of times: Would you do as Joshua did? Would you kill babies if so ordered by your god? Jan believes that Jesus would have. Do you agree?

    Meaningless? Life has whatever meaning we give it. The ultimate waste of time is to worship nothingness, follow imaginary orders, and live in fear that we might not get into an imaginary paradise. Alternatively, we can spend life pursuing truth, improving the world, and enjoying the beauty of life. Life that is based on reality is as deep and rich as that reality. You believe that exploring reality is “silly,” so you won’t explore it. And therefore you will never know how deep and rich it can be. You are left believing in the unproven unnatural world, which is inconsistent with what has been proven and even inconsistent with itself. God is all good, but he kills innocent babies for the sake of seizing property. That makes sense. Jesus is love, but he would have supported the Jericho baby-killings, and would have even committed them if asked. God is all-knowing, but he’s surprised that Adam and Eve eat the apple. God is perfect, but his creations aren’t, and he doesn’t know which ones are good until after they die. The Bible is perfect, but it has not been translated perfectly, and it contradicts itself to boot, so it’s not perfect.

    Thus, Christianity seems to be nothing more than an elaborate hoax. As in the Wizard of Oz, one must pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

    Yes, I believe that death is final. If so, that’s just the price we pay for life, and it’s well worth it. And therefore, we’d better make the most of this life. But who really knows? Maybe there is some natural process by which a consciousness persists after death. That would be nice. There’s no proof for it, of course, so I’m not going to base my life on the assumption that it’s waiting for me, and I’m certainly not going to believe any else’s made-up rules for getting to that made-up place called heaven. Nobody alive has been there, so nobody alive can possibly know if it exists, much less how to get there.

    Re: “have you listened to tommy’s answer yet?”

    Yes. And I’m sorry, but he’s just another preacher trying to control people by waving the Bible in their faces. Not surprisingly, he uses the Bible as his source for everything, and he claims that his interpretation of that book is the One True interpretation. He offers zero proof of his claims, such as: “All men are aware of god in conscience and in nature.” In other words, the Bible says that everyone believes in the Bible’s god, whether they say so or not. It’s clearly wishful thinking. One would have to conclude from Nelson’s pitch that anyone who says they don’t believe in god is just plain lying. Nevermind that the Bible is so self-contradictory that many people cannot bring themselves to believe it. Every religion claims that it is the One True religion. Tommy Nelson’s religion is no different.

    Other Tommy Nelson quotes:

    Nelson: “The Bible does not teach free will; I’m sorry, but that is an American institution.”

    Reply: This raises an important point: If the Bible is perfect, why are there so many different interpretations? According to http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm, there are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world. How can that be, if all are following the same book, which supposedly communicates your god’s word with perfect clarity? Obviously, its clarity is not perfect. Therefore, it cannot be the perfect word of a perfect god. More likely, the Bible is the creation of ordinary humans and is as flawed as we are.

    Nelson: “Those who do not please god are dead to him.”

    Reply: The living cannot be dead to an imaginary character. The imaginary character is the one that is dead to the living.

    Nelson: “God is as glorified by the preaching of the ex-sinner who has been converted as he is by the conversion of the wicked… So he uses evangelism and prayer as the means by which he accomplishes this divine end.”

    Reply: This statement serves to glorify the evangelist himself by painting himself as a tool of his god. He wants people to believe that his words are really the words of their god, and therefore that his words must be obeyed. In reality, he is using their god as his tool for controlling them.

    Now back to your other points.

    Re: “our very natures will never turn away from Him for another–especially a system of theories that offers the opposite of the beauty and glory of God.”

    My beliefs are in the beauty and glory of nature, which is there for all to see, as long as humans don’t destroy it. If that is the opposite of your beliefs, then I’ll side with nature.

    Re: “He is a living God whose Holy Spirit lives inside those to come to Him.”

    You can’t come anywhere close to proving this statement. Without independent proof, even people making such claims cannot distinguish them from self-delusion. Self-delusion has the power to make people feel a certain way, anywhere from paranoic to supremely blissful. You cannot distinguish your bliss created by a grand wizard living inside you from bliss created by self-delusion. “I just know” isn’t proof and does not rule out self-delusion. People suffering from self-delusion often fear learning about things outside of their illusory world, because such learning could dispel their delusion.

    Re: “no thank you geoffrey”

    Colleen, although I would like you to learn more about the world around you, I do not believe it would be safe for any Christian to just up and immediately become an atheist. The only source of morality for Christians is the Bible. If a Christian were to give that up, they would not know right from wrong. Lacking a moral compass, and they could become a danger to themselves or others. Therefore, until you learn the fundemental, non-Biblical standards for being a good person, and the reasons behind them, please stick with Christianity.

23. Geoffrey,
    I had actually decided to end my part in this discussion as it seems to be going nowhere and there is no point in arguing. Since you brought my name up and have stated that I believe certain things, I am going to post this last comment.

    It appears to me that you not only seek to pick a fight with Ron and me, you are attempting to pick a fight with God. You are actually one of the reasons some people might believe the Bible because it does say that in the last days there will be scoffers. 2 Peter 3:3 Perhaps that is because you really would like for Him to reveal Himself to you in a way that satisfies you, I don’t know about that.

    You stated that I believe in evolution and I want you to know that I believe that when God spoke His word and said, “Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and every fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.” this is exactly what happened. I believe that mankind, particularly those who study science, have discovered some of the ways He brought forth life and they mistakenly believe that this happens as a natural process. You believe whatever you want to, but I believe that God’s spoken word brought forth life. As with everything in nature, He put natural laws in place to sustain and continue the process which may account for change WITHIN a species. Call it adaptation, evolution, or whatever you want, but it was put in place by Almighty God.

    As for what Jesus would or would not do, He knows, not I. Do you know that what I believe is really not important to anything or anybody other than myself. What is important is truth. Jesus Christ proclaims to God the Father that His word is truth. John 17:17. John tells us that Jesus is the living Word. If you really want to know more about Jesus read the book of John. I disagree with Colleen that you should read or listen to websites. God’s word has power and that is where you must go if you are going to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. A good place to start is the book gospel of John.

24. Hi Jan, welcome back!

    I don’t view this as a fight. This is a discussion. What I am trying to do is to point out inconsistancies in the Bible, and also in religious beliefs.

    Regarding whether Jesus would or would not kill babies, your beliefs do matter, because murder is a pretty important subject. How did this come up? I described to you a discrepancy I saw between the “God is love” claim and your god’s order to to kill babies, an order Joshua carried out. The Bible offers no resolution to these two personalities of your god, including the Book of John to which you refer me. The only way for me to resolve this question is to ask Christians. Is that OK? Any Christian who can’t answer this question is in the dark with me and should acknowledge that the Bible seems self-contradictory.

    Re: “[God] put natural laws in place”

    Do you have proof of this? Given the numerous self-contradictions of the Bible, it is not a trustworthy source. Furthermore, the Bible’s creation story is unproven and thus cannot be used as proof.

    Re: “He put natural laws in place to sustain and continue the process which may account for change WITHIN a species.”

    Does this mean you don’t believe that one species can evolve into another?

25. Ron:

    Re: “It seems to say you are choosing to believe one thing over another. Because it makes the most sense _to you_.”

    I never said that I “choose” to believe anything. I have said the opposite. I said I believe X, Y, and Z because they make the most sense to me. And I said, “If a more solid, sensible idea arises, then my belief will automatically change accordingly.” AUTOMATICALLY. My beliefs go wherever the evidence leads. This is the opposite of “choosing” a belief.

    Re: “Are you open to the idea that their might be a God who will judge you according to your sins on the day of Judgment?

    I am absolutely open to that idea. As I’ve said several times now, my beliefs simply follow the evidence. And as I said in post #168, “I just want to learn what happened. If anyone can prove that one or more gods created the universe, I will happily follow the evidence.” I would have no choice. If the evidence were to demonstrate that a god exists, then a god exists. It’s not up to me, and it doesn’t matter what I wish were the case. Likewise, although I would dearly love to spend eternity with my family and friends, the evidence doesn’t support that idea, so I don’t believe it’s going to happen. Reality doesn’t care what I want.

    Re: “I do believe in the micro “evolution” as somewhat stated in the diagrams. What I don’t believe and they don’t show is upward evolution where we see the addition of never before seen generation.”

    I addressed this in post #22, to which you never replied. Specifically: “The kinds of changes you show DO occur. It just takes a long time, so normally you don’t see it in one generation (”micro-evolution”). As explained at the evolution web site, new things pop up as a result of mutations. Sometimes a mutation is visible immediately when it occurs (i.e., within a single generation) and sometimes it’s not. As mutations accumulate, a gene could produce a protein more and more different from the original. If there are blue plants for the beetle to blend in with, then natural selection could favor those mutations that cause the green pigment to become bluer, until a blue beetle finally appeared.”
    This didn’t help? What kind of evidence would you need to see for “upward evolution”?

    Re: ” I am closed on the topic of Darwinian Evolution. I have examined the a great deal of evidence and found it lacking.”

    Given that your posting #21 demonstrated a lack of understanding about basic evolutionary principles, it seems premature for you to be “closed” on Darwinian evolution.

    Re: “[Darwinian evolution] also offers no hope to the bigger questions of why we are here and what purpose we have in this life.”

    Neither does physics, math, or chemistry, but surely you believe them. Neither they nor Darwinian evolution claim to address our purpose in life. That issue should have no bearing whatsoever on their believability.

26. PS: Ron, I would be interested in where you stand on the question of Jesus killing babies in Jericho.

27. Geoffrey,
    If you read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation, you may see for yourself why Jesus Christ was sent, what He taught, and how He lived. He came healing some and raising some from the dead, He gave Himself that we might not have to die. It seems to me that you are doing your best to find some way to accuse the One person who is sinless of being guilty. To accuse a Holy God who came to save life is to become guilty of calling evil good and good evil. Read Isaiah 5:20. God alone has the right to bring judgment and for whatever reason judgment was brought on the people of Jericho. If we get into theology and study the deeper things here, we could draw a parallel and compare Joshua to Jesus. We know that Joshua offered sanctuary to Rahab and her family. Yet those in Jericho who continued to defy the Lord received judgment. Jesus came as our Saviour, but He will come again as a judge. This does not change the fact that Jesus came bringing grace and truth and offering forgiveness and life to a lost and dying world. Satan wants to distract us from that message.

    Jesus told us why He came into this lost world. Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and the recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    When He comes again, and He will, He will have the additional job of judgment.

    …for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God, so then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:10-12

    Perhaps, rather than questioning for the purpose of arguing, you should read to become enlightened. The story that concerns you is included in the Bible. It could just as easily have been omitted. It wasn’t. There is a reason or purpose that the Lord has for its inclusion. Instead of accusing the Holy One of God, seek to learn from Him.

28. Re: Jericho.

    I’ve refrained from commenting because it’s like trying to explain a Hawaiian sunset to a blind man. But I’ll give you a few quick thoughts. First, we don’t know the eternal fate of the children. But we do know the people of Jericho had time to repent. They did not. Therefore, they brought destruction to themselves, their land and their children. I’m surprised you don’t see the parallels. The entire discussion brings to mind these words from Jesus:

    Luke 13:1-5
    1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
    2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
    3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
    4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
    5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

    Geoffrey, are you any better than the people of Jericho? Today you stand in judgment of God. God is just. Yet you accuse Him of not conforming to your idea of what He should be. Do you not see the arrogance? To be in judgment of something you must be greater or have authority over that which you judge.

    Again and again, you cry for proof of scriptures you don’t understand. Yet you are unwilling to study the overwhelming amount of manuscript, archaeological, prophetic and statistical evidence to remove reasonable doubt. And you command every preacher that believes scripture provide you that evidence before preaching from the word.

    Geoffrey, we can’t make it any clearer. You are blind and need healing. Unless you humble yourself (completely), receive God’s gift of faith and respond with repenting of the sins you know of, you too will receive God’s perfect judgment and wrath. Then, maybe, you’ll get the answers you seek according to God’s grace.

    I am praying for your salvation.

29. Hi Ron, Hi Geoffrey, Hi Jann,

    Glad to see everyone back and well.

    Jann, i am actually going to address you first. 🙂

    Respectfully, i don’t entirely disagree with what you said in disagreement to me referring to sources other than the bible. I agree entirely that the bible has allll the answers, and alone it is sufficient. However, i’ll argue that God also gave us teachers. Past and present. Tom Nelson happened to be the teacher who brought scripture to a clear understanding for me, in order that i came to understand i needed to repent and give my life to Christ.

    The fact that Geoffrey says he knows the bible fairly well, indicates he is still lacking in understanding, and therefore, i am leading him (or whomever comes in here) to sources that may very well explain things. For example, GK is so bent out of shape about Joshua killing children. Well, that prompted me to do more research and i found this link which has a theory/explanation to that:

    http://www.raptureready.com/soap/g19.html

    And another which is outstanding, Tommy explains the bible’s inconsistencies (which he explains there really aren’t, but you have to hear it), which i may not have picked up on, only by reading the bible:

    http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/18BiblicalInerrancy.mp3

    So here we have an explanation to Joshua’s order, and an explanation to the bible and what appears to be inconsistencies which really are not. The bible is a deep deep book, and sometimes teachers are better to learn from, than going at it alone. I could read a geometry book and not learn a thing, but if i have a teacher who better knows it, they can explain it to me as a supplement to my reading the geometry book.

    Geoffrey, if you truly have issues with those 2 points, i encourage you to go the links, and i’ll address more in a bit.

30. i want to give a disclaimer. upon researching more about joshua, i was steered to a link about the “Nephilim.” upon searching more about them, is what brought me to the above website: raptureready.com. i want to add, i know nothing of the authors in there, and therefore am not endorsing them or the website, or not. it was a bit more charismatic than i am used to, but had interesting articles nonetheless. i typically want to refer to sources i am familiar with. i just thought that particular article was very interesting.

31. okay geoffrey, here are more of my thoughts…

    re #169: you continue to miss it. God HAS lifted His almighty finger and revealed Himself to creation. i don’t need Him to do it again for me, because i am not arrogant nor the center of the universe. He did His work, which was more than enough for me. sadly, it isn’t enough for you and you are like the clay raising your fist at the potter.

    this proof thing we keep going rounds about, i’ve said it so much.. the proof for me is in my heart. i am not under mind-control or self-delusion or whatever else you suggested. you can’t speak for me or ron or jann. but i guess you don’t have to take our word for it. if it doesn’t fit your reasoning we are self delusional. now i see where this is going. please again refer to the (way above post) of heaps of verses regarding the fool.

    re #171: you state yourself as fact, yet no proof exists to back you up. proof exists all around on the contrary. that statement holds nothing.

    re the top of #172: i never suggested the big bang theory was true.

    re #173: listen to tommy address that very well in post #179.

    re #181: ANYONE can call themselves a Christian. that does not mean that they are. sadly, it’s the way it is, and Jesus refers to the church falling into a world-wide state of apostasy before He returns again. i believe we are well on our way to that. God’s word is perfect, but man is not. therefore, man can manipulate and twist scripture, and even form their own religions based upon false beliefs and teachings. satan works everywhere.

    re #169: i recall finding love in nature in my #111 post. did you miss that? again tho, i credit God the creator and therefore praise Him for the beauty around us, you credit… nature. thank you nature for making yourself. makes no sense!

    back to the joshua killing babies part. the above article referring to the fallen angels was quite interesting. if indeed, he was ordered by God to wipe out “bad seeds” is God’s business. but you are throwing out the baby with the bath water (no pun there), by dismissing the bible as a whole because you have a problem with that one incident. again, the heaps of verses way above. oh, i caught what you did… you brought up a point above by stating “POST NATAL” killings. did you ever address jann who called you out on your major issue with joshua killing babies, in the parallel, tragic murdering of the unborn babies rampant in today’s time?

    also in #169, the last 4 sentences before your closing 2 sentences are completely false.

    lastly for this post, i must point out you are a major contradiction. you don’t believe in God because you see no evidence of Him. then you go on your rants about how awesome nature is, and life here on earth. helllllo…. open your eyes. is the heaps of joy you have not evidence of your Creator who did all this cos He loves you?

32. Note to all: If you post a comment (especially one real long or with links) your post may be held for moderation or worse go to spam. Here’s how you can tell. If you post and it says awaiting moderation – it’s being held for my approval (anything w/ a link gets stuck at that point). If your post seems to just vanish. Then it hit spam. Please just post a commet that says something like, “my post just went to spam”. I can recover 99.9% of them if I find out right away.

33. yes, mine just vanished. thanks for explaining we can let you know we’re spam. =)

34. re #171

    the apostle Paul had an experience outside of his earthly existence, and i have heard of other accounts of folks who have clinically died and also had “out of body experiences”… as if they were given a taste of that awaits them after they leave their mortal bodies. some have been pleasant (heading towards the beautiful “white light”), others have been terrified and were revived only to commit their lives the Lord Jesus. i’ve seen it on 20/20. =)

    so are they all lying? (those who were clinically dead whose existance continued on) or is it possible God allowed these experiences as a way to offer more witness accounts of the “afterlife”? i believe so. it’s fascinating!

    Paul wrote: “I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know – only God knows. Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

35. Ron,

    Re: “I do believe in the micro “evolution” as somewhat stated in the diagrams. What I don’t believe and they don’t show is upward evolution where we see the addition of never before seen generation.”

    What kind of evidence would you need to see for “upward evolution”?

36. At this point, Geoffrey, I’m only interested in discussing your repentance. We can hash out evolution and creation again after that, if you like.

37. OK, I’ve repented. Now, what kind of evidence would you need to see for “upward evolution”?

38. show it geoffrey. if you have it, please show it…

39. Hallelujah?

40. hi geoffrey… you are funny, really, but i want you to offer up your evidence, your proof positive of upward evolution. if you can produce that, then there is no need for this debate to go on any further. if you cannot, i will continue to pray, as i have been doing, that you will soon soften and finally look up to your Creator with a heart so full of sorrow, only He can mend.

    i, personally, will eagerly await your “proof” that goes against everything taught in scripture….

    oh, and sometimes the best time to really see up, is when you are on your knees.

41. I rather see proof of his repentance.

42. ron, what a great link. i listened to ray’s “true and false conversion” just the other day, but this link has an outline you can print out AND the sermon in PDF format. super cool! (i want to sign up for W.O.T.M.’s evangelism course… know anything about it?)

    geoffrey, all that is left to say is, when you cannot come up with the evidence we ask for, i truly hope you will finally evaluate WHY you cannot, why science cannot prove the big bang period, and why it is soooo much easier to find rest in the belief that we have a Creator, He loves you and i personally, and you can have a relationship that lasts with Him forever. trust in Him and repent, and you are forever His. it’s that simple!

    blessings to you all. ~colleen

43. I’ve taken the first course and led a class at our church. It’s very good. The concept of teaching the law (or even mentioning Hell) makes some very uneasy. Get a class to listen to Hell’s best kept secret and that will help you gage the need for the whole class. Of course, I love it and think everyone needs it. 🙂

44. i agree–i think everyone needs it. thanks for the feedback. i love the whole WOTM ministry, and what they are doing. good for them! it’s about time someone does it.

45. geoffrey,

    i just listened to this and you came to my mind quite a bit. i’ll post the link for you, and if you have time, give it a go.

    http://www.dbcmedia.org/xcart/product.php?productid=3310&cat=0&page=1

    i hope you are well.

46. Colleen,

    OK, you got me. I never repented.

    Sorry I’ve taken so long to reply. Much has been going on at my end that kept getting in the way.

    I find it interesting that you and Ron won’t offer any opinion on whether Jesus would have agreed with the baby-killing in Jericho, and would have even done it himself. I think you can sense the inherent contradiction in your faith that this issue raises, and you just can’t bring yourselves to approach it.

    I went to the website you mentioned in post #195 and realized quickly that it’s just the same old self-centered, I-am-God’s-mouthpiece-and-therefore-obey-me stream of arrogance that constitutes Tom Nelson. He blames all of life’s woes on the lack of religion, or, more precisely, lack of HIS religion. And although he bases his beliefs on the Bible, he doesn’t consider for a moment the Bible’s self-contradiction and, therefore, its self-invalidation. Like so many self-proclaimed “holy men,” he’s getting adulation from his flock, and he enjoys it so much that he won’t discuss all the ways in which his source, the Bible, is wrong. No need to consider his words any further.

    Regarding your request for proof of “upward evolution,” it’s all in the evolution web site that I referred you to previously. “Upward evolution” is nothing more than the accumulation of many “micro-evolutionary” changes. It’s all the same thing. Name one protein that did not come from a similar ancestor. If you really want to learn what evolution is, go back to the web site and stick with it for more than 5 minutes. It’s a beautiful explanation, with graphics and easy language. If you can’t learn evolution there, then you’ll probably never learn it, in which case you can never criticize it.

47. GK: There is no contradiction. I previously answered your post here (post 178).

48. Hi Ron,

    You said the people of Jericho “had ample time to repent” before all the baby-killing. What sins do babies have to repent of, and how should they go about it?

49. Ron,

    Furthermore, you did not answer the question. You did not say “Yes” or “No” as to whether Jesus would approve of and commit the baby-killing of Jericho.

50. Romans9
    20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, ‘Why did You make me like this?”‘ 21 Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    Matthew 13
    3 Then He told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

    10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”

    11 He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
    “Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
    ” ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
    15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    Luke 11
    9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

    10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    Phillipians 2
    12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    Proverbs 1
    5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
    and let the discerning get guidance-

    6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
    the sayings and riddles of the wise.

    7 The *fear* of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
    but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

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